The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

Statement by the Deputy Presiding Officer

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on the agenda.
I would remind all Members to ensure that their questions are succinct and within time, please, and would urge Ministers to also give succinct answers.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

First this afternoon we have questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

Employment Opportunities for Disabled People

Joyce Watson AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to help improve employment opportunities for disabled people? OQ57834

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We continue to take a range of measures to help improve economic opportunities for disabled people. That includes the establishment, in 2020, of a Welsh Government network of disabled people's employment champions to engage with employers to encourage the further employment of disabled people.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for your answer and I very much welcome the Welsh Government's employer incentive scheme for disabled apprentices. It's well documented that the employment rate of disabled people is much lower when compared to non-disabled people. Figures up until March 2020 showed that the employment rate for disabled people was 50 per cent, compared to 81 per cent for non-disabled people. It's absolutely crucial that, as a Government, everything is done that can be done to bridge that gap and tackle the inequality.Minister, I'm keen to know how you're advertising this scheme and where potential employers can find out about it. Also, is the Welsh Government encouraging employers to link up with organisations, like Leonard Cheshire Disability, which have a long and successful track record of helping disabled people find work?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. You're right to point out the significant difference in economic outcomes for disabled people and people who don't have a disability. That's part of the reason why we shifted so much of our employability and skills plans to try to make sure that we helped people furthest from the labour market, including significant numbers of disabled people.
As to the service we broadly provide, we make sure that's advertised through a network of disabled people's organisations and employability providers, and the first port of call for anybody looking for help and support is the Business Wales service. It's a one-stop-shop. There is no wrong door—if you go to Business Wales, they will help you to find where that support is available. And Leonard Cheshire, which you mentioned specifically, are a member of our disabled people's employment working group. They help us with advice and guidance on emerging issues and priorities, and it's really important to listen to and to work with an organisation like Leonard Cheshire, which can not only tell us about their work, but the lived experience of people and whether we're really making the difference we want to.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I recently had the opportunity to visit Carmarthenshire People First—a fantastic independent charity that's taking a leading role in supporting adults with learning disabilities by providing independent advocacy, training and support to individuals who need it. The charity is led by a fabulous team of dedicated and passionate staff, spearheaded by Sarah Mackintosh, the charity's manager. Time and time again, Sarah and her team have gone above and beyond the call of duty to offer support to those who need it, especially during the darkest times of the pandemic. Whether it's organising walks along the River Towy, bingo nights in their headquarters, or delivering winter well-being packages, they do brilliant things and I'm pleased to champion them in the Senedd today. But given this brilliant work that Carmarthenshire People First do, can the Minister outline what financial support is available to this charity and others to ensure they can continue to support individuals with learning disabilities with employment opportunities? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question and for highlighting the work that People First do, not just in Carmarthen, but in other parts of the country. I have done work in my constituency role with Cardiff People First and, again, it's an organisation that actually has disabled people making their own choices and fronting a lot that the organisations do. So, I've had a very positive experience in seeing the difference they can make with and for disabled people.
Part of the challenge goes back to my response to Joyce Watson and about how, from a Business Wales point of view, to help people if they're looking for that experience, and there's a range of different areas where people can look for individual support. The challenge always is the resource we have directly available and the resource that other organisations have available too, whether local authorities or others. If People First are looking at a particular issue within Carmarthenshire, then I'd be more than pleased to receive correspondence and make sure that the right organisation, or the right part of Government, responds to you.

Aberthaw Power Station

Andrew RT Davies AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with Cardiff capital region regarding its purchase of Aberthaw power station? OQ57832

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. I have discussed the recent purchase of Aberthaw with a number of members of the Cardiff capital region board. My officials continue to maintain a dialogue with the capital region on this and other matters as we look to exploit the potential for renewable energy in particular.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Obviously, this wasn't part of the original business plan, this purchase of Aberthaw power station, and the plans that have come forward are dynamic, in fairness, with the potential of 5,000 jobs to be created over the medium to long term. In your discussions, have you been assessing how much demand might be placed on Welsh Government resources—additional demand on Welsh Government resources—to allow the plans to come to fruition that would see the creation of these 5,000 jobs and the potential to develop green energy projects there? Because there's a lot of remediation work to go on on the site, but there'll be additional resource issues, I would suggest, about bringing new investment as well.

Vaughan Gething AC: So, this is part of where I think, actually—. There are areas where there's disagreement between the Welsh and the UK Governments, and, actually, the city deals and the regional deals that are taking place are an example of where we can work together. Of course, there's a wider investment fund, where the UK Government provided funds, as indeed have local authorities. The conversations my officials are having are exactly on the points that you raise—what's the potential, how close are we from potential, and the larger and the longer term investment opportunities being realised as to what we do now, and will there be a call on Welsh Government resources, and, if so, in what space. So, there isn't a finalised answer to the point you make, but that's exactly why conversations are taking place. And we're in a good place, with positive relationships with each of our economic regions—the four regions that are taking part, with their regional economic frameworks. And I'm hoping that we can make not just outline promises of what might be, but come with rather more practical measures to realise the significant and positive jobs impact this could have.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Minister. First of all, the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, yesterday, I raised with you the Cardiff capital region brochure that boasted of relatively low rates of pay, and describes Cardiff as having lower graduate salaries than Birmingham, London, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Unsurprisingly, Cardiff capital region's approach has been labelled a destructive strategy that would push away young talent in south-east Wales by Nerys Lloyd-Pierce, chair of Cardiff Civic Society. And TUC general secretary, Shavanah Taj, has said that this is a depressing and divisive approach that risks locking in a low-wage economy for the many communities the Cardiff capital region represents. Minister, given that you have previously said that you don't have to get out to get on in Wales, can you tell us how the Cardiff capital region's marketing strategy works alongside the Welsh Government's approach for graduate retention?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I don't think it's fair to say that the capital region is looking to lock in depressed graduate salaries. Actually, the ambition of the capital region, which is made up, as you know, of a partnership between 10 local authorities, of differing political leaderships, and the UK and Welsh Governments, is to lever in and engineer further growth, improved productivity, and actually raise wages right across the region. That's why there are conversations about what can take place within the capital, as well as what takes place outside of Cardiff—whether it's at Aberthaw or whether it's in what we want to see in terms of improving economic performance and outcomes for people in the Valleys as well. So, this is really about wanting to raise the bar and see further growth and improvement in wages, including for graduates.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I hope you'll condemn this brochure, Minister, because it's vital that Wales is not marketed to external investors as a low-wage economy, and this language certainly does nothing to retain graduates who feel that they do have to get out of Wales to get on in life. Now, of course, it's crucial that, as we develop the Welsh economy post pandemic, the Welsh Government harnesses the unique skills and sectors associated with local areas. And one way to do that is through enterprise zones. It's vital that the enterprise zones align with the priorities agreed in the regional economic frameworks that have recently been published, and it's important we see real outcomes and value for money from the enterprise zones. Minister, I understand that enterprise zones have been through a period of extensive review, which has been informed by discussions with key stakeholders, and which builds on the earlier review undertaken in 2018, according to a recent written statement that you have issued. Can you therefore tell us what the outcomes of that review have been, and can you also confirm today how you're ensuring that each of the enterprise zones is delivering value for money for the Welsh taxpayer?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, you're right to say that our enterprise zones strategy needs to make sure that it's aligned with the broader work we're undertaking with partners. And I think, actually, it's a real strength that we're able to have a joint conversation, where the Welsh Government and local authorities in those regional groups and business organisations have a single voice, and it's interesting that that unified and cohesive offer is something that a number of people find attractive, for growth within the UK as well as the potential for inward investment.
The three enterprise zones that are continuing, based around the three potential port areas of Neath Port Talbot, around Pembrokeshire and, indeed, in north Wales around Holyhead, all have potentially different missions that could all be complementary, and are certainly complementary with the aspirations of each of the regional economic frameworks. And that's how we're looking to make sure we have a complementary approach, rather than a competitive or competing or contradictory approach between what the enterprise zones are doing and their line of sight with those regions. I can provide the Member with extra assurance because I met the three chairs of the enterprise zones that are continuing, and this was part of the discussion that we had.

Paul Davies AC: Of course, Minister, it's vital that the enterprise zones, the Cardiff capital region, the regional skills partnerships and other key forums are working together effectively, and that we can see clear outcomes and value for money from them. The Welsh Government's regional economic frameworks are important in developing place-based approaches to economic development, and marketing the distinctive benefits of each of our regions.Of course, it's vital that we can see how these frameworks are not only improving prosperity in each region, but also how they are tackling some of the deep structural issues that have plagued some communities in Wales for far too long. Therefore, Minister, can you tell us what key performance indicators will be used to rate how effective the regional economic frameworks are in practice? Can you also tell us how you will ensure that these frameworks do not result in further bureaucracy and duplication, and will you also commit to providing an annual update on the outcomes of each of these frameworks so Members can determine their effectiveness?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, the regional economic frameworks actually set out how partners are going to work together and the priorities for investment in improvement in those regions. And they're not imposed by Welsh Government—far from it. It's joint work that's been undertaken between those economic regions, between the different partnerships that exist together in Wales, and, in each of them, there's been a different level of political leadership in each region with local authorities, but they've all recognised they can gain more by working together and having a sense of priorities. And the regional skills partnerships on the same footprint are helping to do that in a way that I think is consistent and adds value to each other.
For each of the regions, you'll be able to see not just the areas of priority, but whether we are making progress in each of those areas as we go through each year. I'm not sure that a report from me annually is necessarily the right way to go, but I do think it would be helpful, between the Welsh Government and each of those economic regions, to be able to provide an update on a basis that would be shared, because this is the part of the challenge, isn't it—there's often a demand that the Minister does everything, and, in this area, we recognise we have to work alongside local authorities and the powers that they have, and it's actually about the Welsh Government not simply directing everything in this area, but working in a much more cohesive and effective partnership.I'd be more than happy to discuss with each of those regions how we provide a regular update so that the people that local authorities are accountable to, which is obviously a subject on everyone's mind given the elections at the start of May, together with the Government, know what we are doing together to improve economic fortunes and to make sure you can see the sort of progress that we are making.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I listened with great interest to your response to Paul Davies, both yesterday and today, on the Cardiff capital region's absolutely shocking boast about relatively lower graduate pay in Cardiff compared to counterparts elsewhere in the UK. These comments, while supposedly to attract inward investors into the region, are ultimately insulting to our young talent, treating them merely as a cheap resource. Welsh graduates must be valued as more than cheap labour if the Welsh brain drain is to be rectified. I also noted the Minister didn't respond to Paul Davies's calls in his second question to condemn what was in the prospectus relating to wages. So, I wonder, then, does the Minister think this kind of rhetoric from Cardiff capital region is appropriate, and does he think that the promotion of a low-wage economy is the best way to further the Welsh economy.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I just don't think the Cardiff capital region are promoting a low-wage economy in what they're saying. I haven't read the exact text in the brochure, so I'm not going to say that I absolutely endorse or condemn what's there. I know from my conversations with the varied leadership of the region that they are not looking to promote this part of Wales as an area of cheap labour. They recognise there are significant skills. We have lots of graduates coming out of the universities, and that's very attractive for a range of businesses already here as well as people who might want to invest in this particular part of Wales. The fact that there is an economy that is growing, the fact that there are lots of graduate skills—and it's the skills that people are looking for—is attractive.
The ultimate end goal is to improve people's economic outcomes, to see wages rise, and that's particularly important given the cost-of-living crisis that we are still going through. So, in terms of the way it's been presented to me, that certainly isn't the way that I would present the plans for the Cardiff capital region, but I'm not entirely sure it's a faithful or fair representation of the way that the capital region themselves are looking to market the opportunities to improve productivity and wage growth here within the capital region.

Luke Fletcher AS: I have to say I find it difficult to accept that the Cardiff capital region isn't promoting low wages, and of course the explanation given by yourself as well yesterday in response to Paul Davies that the way this has been reported has been miscast, I hope you'd forgive me in saying that I find this nothing more than a bit of spin. I'll read directly from the prospectus, and I quote here:
'We're competitive. The Cardiff Capital Region provides clear cost advantages with competitive operating costs in comparison with other major UK cities. With the security of a large and skilled workforce, the region has an extremely attractive proposition.'
It goes on to talk about salaries.
'Our workforce is distinctively younger than the UK average, well-educated and diverse, supported by three highly regarded universities. Salary costs across the region are very competitive.'
And it goes on to list then the salaries by city, with Cardiff being right at the bottom, highlighted. It further goes on to describe Cardiff as a low-risk, high-reward location that provides clear cost advantages compared with other major UK cities.I think that's pretty clear cut.
And then the reality is that this isn't the first time that something like this has happened. I remember in 2019 my colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth raising almost an identical issue where Trade and Investment Wales had hailed 30 per cent lower salary costs in Wales compared to the other parts of the UK as a reason to invest in Wales. This, sadly, I have to say—

You need to ask the question now.

Luke Fletcher AS: —reflects the ongoing trend where wages in Wales have stagnated for far too long under successive Labour Governments. But I do hope that the Minister in his time in this portfolio will buck that trend, and I sincerely mean that. But how does he propose we tackle the brain drain when there are public bodies in Wales promoting a low-wage economy, and how can we measure his success? Because I certainly don't want to come back to the Minister highlighting this again, and I'd hope none of my successors will need to either.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, look, when you actually think about what you've just read out, it doesn't simply say, 'We are marketing the capital region as a low-wage economy.' It's also about the aspirations. When you look at the wider economic framework, actually, they're very clear in the wider economic framework they want to see investment choices made that help to grow businesses and grow wages. And you also think of what's said about land values. Actually, land values are a really big issue for businesses that are looking to invest, as well as the skills in a population. When I recently met with other inward investors, they were most interested in the skills of the population and the future graduates—the future workforce where they were interested. So, this is about investing in the skills of our population. It's about investing in areas where we know we've got areas of strength. I don't accept that the capital region is being marketed as an area of low wages and wages to be kept low. It's actually about how do we ensure that we have advantages for the capital region, particularly with a younger population, which is a real advantage for a range of employers as well, but high levels of skill and the potential for real wage growth, which is what I want to see, and it's certainly what the capital region wants to see as well.

The Mersey Dee Area

Ken Skates AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting economic development in the Mersey Dee area? OQ57825

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We continue to support the region through our regional economic framework and our place-based approach to economic development. The Welsh Government is a founder member of the Mersey Dee Alliance, as the Member will know, and this is a partnership of organisations working to support the cross-border functional economic area between the north-east of Wales, west Cheshire and the Wirral.

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank the Minister for his answer to my question and also for his steadfast support for Wrexham's bid to be the UK City of Culture in 2025? The Minister's support has been noted across the county borough, and it's been incredibly valuable to be able to boast of to other bidders and obviously to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sportand to the board. In the spirit of solidarity with our northern cousins, who have also supported the bid, would you join Mayors Rotherham and Burnham in calling for the FA Cup semi-final to be moved from Wembley to the north? And would you be able to outline how discussions with our partners across the Mersey Dee area are taking place, with a view of creating more high-quality jobs across the region?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. On both the first points, yes, I am very pleased to continue my stated support for Wrexham's bid to be the UK City of Culture. I know that the Member, and indeed the one-time director of Wrexham Supporters Trust, the constituency Member for Wrexham, have been very clear in their support for the bid as well, as indeed are people across the region and outside. It enjoys cross-party support.
And I also think it would be a very sensible move to ensure that Manchester City and Liverpool fans don't travel to London for the FA Cup semi-final, and that would have wider benefits as well.
And when it comes to developments in the Mersey Dee area, my officials continue to work directly with the counties on both sides of the border to try to understand how we maximise the opportunities that do exist in a range of sectors, from offshore wind to nuclear to marine energy, and of course a range of cross-border supply issues. So, I'm very optimistic about the strength of the partnership that exists, and a recognition that investment in this part of the UK, whether on the Welsh side of the border or the other side, will have a significant and positive impact. So, we'll continue to have those purposive, and what I hope will be productive, conversations.

Mark Isherwood AC: In addition to UK Government-supported signalling renewals on the north Wales main line and over £1.2 billion UK Government funding for the Liverpool city region, benefiting rail service and inter-city transport and economies in the Mersey Dee area, including north-east Wales, the Mersey Dee area has received £59 million directly from the UK Government, including £2.6 million for the Wrexham-Bidston-Liverpool rail line, and £400,000 to further develop proposals for a new station at Deeside industrial park. Step-free access at Flint station is also in development. Network Rail is progressing the development of north Wales main line journey time improvements to outline business-case stage by summer 2022, following which a decision to design will be sought by the rail network enhancements pipeline. And £42.5 million development moneys for the union connectivity review, carried out for the UK Government, which recognised north Wales and north-west England as a highly integrated cross-border economy that will benefit from a programme of transport improvements, will be allocated soon. How will you and your officials therefore work with the UK Government to maximise the economic benefit of this for the Mersey Dee area?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, we'd like to be able to do just that. It does require, though, not just a level of honesty but a level of practical ability to work together, and that can't be on the basis that the UK Government decide what's going to happen and then demand that the Welsh Government falls into line. Now, in the Mersey Dee area you've got local authorities on both sides of the border who are having that productive conversation, and again including different political leadership, so it is about recognising the wider benefit to it.
But a range of the areas that you've mentioned in your statement and question actually come from reserved responsibilities. It's the UK Government's responsibility to invest in rail infrastructure and of course that investment can provide significant additional economic benefit. And of course the union connectivity review you mentioned, one of the things it highlighted, as indeed has the Conservative chair of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, is that HS2 is going to be a problem for the economy of Wales. It should be seen as an England-only project, not England-and-Wales, and that would actually allow us to have significant additional investment within connectivity and transport infrastructure here in Wales, and I hope the Member will join with other people across the Chamber in calling for the UK Government to change its mind on the way that HS2 is categorised, because at the moment Wales will lose out.

Employability and Skills

Paul Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plan for employability and skills? OQ57817

Vaughan Gething AC: On 8 March, I launched the plan for employability and skills, and you'll recall that I also gave an oral statement in this Chamber, at which you were able to ask questions. I outlined our priorities to help more people in Wales to upskill, access and, hopefully, thrive in work, for a more equal economy that works for everyone.

Paul Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that response, Minister. Now, the Welsh Government's plan for employability and skills commits to reviewing adult education and lifelong learning and improving quality and access to skills-based formal and informal adult learning, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, Minister, that, sometimes, shorter courses can be more effective than other routes at filling skills gaps. Therefore, can you tell us when the review of adult education and lifelong learning will take place, and can you tell us what discussions have you had as the economy Minister with skills providers about how the adult education and lifelong learning sector can be strengthened in the future?

Vaughan Gething AC: There are challenges in this area that I'm discussing with the Minister for education and lifelong learning, and our joint engagement with the further education sector in particular. It's both about the way that funding is still up in the air—and we've had this discussion more than once about people's ability to engage in skilled work—and replacement EU funds aren't being fully matched and replaced. The Minister for education and lifelong learning will give more detail about the finalisation of the review into adult and lifelong learning, but I do think the way that we've set out our employability and skills plan, with the priorities we've set about who we want to see that investment made in, to ensure that people can return to the labour market or get closer to the labour market, will actually have the ability to make a real difference, and that will be about understanding the individual needs of people, not a one-size-fits-all approach. So, I'm sure the Member will be interested when we have more detail provided in the near future.

Buffy Williams MS: Minister, generation after generation in Rhondda have been let down by consecutive Tory Westminster Governments. Time and time again, we have lost employment as a direct result of their decisions. Our forefathers lost their industry. More recently, we've lost the tax office, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency jobs, Department for Work and Pensions offices and the local courts. We've lost police on our streets, among other public sector jobs, thanks to Tory austerity, and now Boris wants to shortchange Wales by £1 billion. If it wasn't for Welsh Government's investment in support of companies like E-Cycle and Flowtech, local businesses in our town centres in Treorchy and Ferndale, and initiatives like the Big Shed in Tonypandy, the remote working hub in Porth and the Court House in Llwynypia, we would see much higher unemployment figures in Rhondda. How will the employability and skills plan build on the success we are beginning to see in Rhondda, so we don't have to get out to get on?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question and the reminder of some of the significant challenges we have, and the £1 billion shortchanging in Wales in replacement EU funds will make a big difference to what we're able to do and the speed at which we're able to do it. In setting out our economic mission and the employability and skills plan, we're focusing on what we can do, so that's why we're going to continue to work to help to bring people closer to the labour market, those people who aren't there already, and we know that there are significant and differential outcomes for people with disabilities, as Joyce Watson highlighted earlier, but also economic activity rates in communities like the ones that the Member represents. So, I'm confident that we will be able to make a difference, but my frustration is we could do so much more if we had a UK Government on our side. I hope that, during this term, we'll see a change in that respect from the UK, but we're determined to do everything we can to make sure there's a better story to tell for the Rhondda and other similar communities and make sure we really can be successful and you won't need to get out to get on.

The Tourism Sector

Sam Rowlands MS: 5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the tourism sector? OQ57830

Vaughan Gething AC: Our strategy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the visitor economy 2020-2025', sets our vision and ambition for the sector. We also, of course, have the shaping the vision recovery plan published a year ago. In the budget for 2022-23, we've indicated an allocation of £47 million over three years to deliver on those priorities.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister for your response and, as I'm sure you'd agree, the tourism sector is so important here in Wales, and that's why it's a pleasure to chair the Senedd's cross-party group on tourism. I look forward to seeing many Members attending the meeting next week.
But Minister, as you'll know, Wales welcomes around 11 million overnight domestic visitors, 87 million day visitors, around 1 million international visitors in normal years, and these people come to our country, spend their money, support local jobs and enjoy all that we have to offer, and, in my own patch in north Wales, this sector is worth around £3.5 billion a year to our economy.
One of the big concerns that the tourism sector are sharing with me is the Government's latest council tax empty dwellings regulations, and specifically the criteria for self-catering accommodation being aligned with business rates instead of council tax and the changes that would take place there, with properties now needing to be let for 182 days, which is a 160 per cent increase, and available to let for 252 days, which is an 80 per cent increase and, confusingly, quite different to HMRC's definition in terms of tax purposes. Many people in the tourism sector—

You will need to ask your question now, please.

Sam Rowlands MS: I'll come to it now. Many people in the tourism sector are shocked by these changes, and see them as being detrimental to their livelihoods. So, Minister, do you think these changes are good for the sector?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, there was significant comment on exactly this subject yesterday with my colleague the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and in questions elsewhere. Look, I've actually met the visitor economy forum today and this is a subject they've raised. There are concerns around a number of areas. The challenge though is the balance in what we're trying to do, and the balance in what we're trying to do to have a successful and healthy visitor economy, with decent jobs and decent wages, that doesn't have an unacceptable impact on communities that host parts of the visitor economy as well. And the balance in all of this can't be struck successfully if we do nothing and simply carry on as we are. So, we'll continue to engage with all those businesses in the visitor economy. What we won't do is pretend that just business as usual, as it is now, is going to deliver the successful future we all want to see. And when you're in Government, you have to decide and you have to make choices about how that balance is going to be struck. I'm optimistic that we are on the path to another successful season for the visitor economy here in Wales, and more to come for both domestic and international visitors.

Health and Well-being in the Workplace

Luke Fletcher AS: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding encouraging businesses to prioritise health and well-being in the workplace? OQ57836

Vaughan Gething AC: Welcome back. The health and well-being of workers is a priority for this Government. Last month, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being and I announced £1.4 million of funding over the next three years for the Time to Change Wales programme to continue. We also work together on the Healthy Working Wales programme as well.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that answer. The COVID pandemic has led to a dramatic change in the way we work. Whilst many will now be returning to the office, some workers will still be working from home and getting used to new, more flexible work practices. Whilst the flexibility is to be welcomed, this has led to a blurring of the lines between the work and the home environment in some cases. Countries like Portugal and Belgium are introducing right-to-disconnect legislation, which allows employees to disconnect from their work outside of office hours. Has there been any discussions within the Welsh Government or with the UK Government about introducing similar rules for Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: No, we're not at that point. We are having a conversation about what is a healthy balance in the way that the world of work has changed during the pandemic, and how much that change is going to be permanent. And actually, some of the challenges about the surveillance of people when they're working remotely—it's a matter that, of course, Sarah Murphy, the Member for Bridgend has consistently raised. There's a balance between those people who have seen a well-being improvement from being able to have some of their working life done remotely and those who have found it a struggle in not being as connected to the workplace as well. So, it isn't as simple as saying, 'Going back to the office is good for everybody's mental health', and it's not as simple as saying, 'People not working in an office is good for them as well.' So, there's the challenge in the balance. And interestingly, at yesterday's CIPD conference, this was part of the conversation being had.
In the visitor economy forum meeting that I had today, I made the offer that what I would like from the Government's point of view is a clear understanding, as the changing pattern emerges, between businesses and business organisations and trade unions, on what a better pattern of a working life is likely to mean, to make sure we balance some of these competing objectives in how you get on in your industry—actually, part of the practical business of learning on the job, as I did when I was a trainee solicitor; doing that was much easier when you were around other people—and at the same time, balancing other parts of your life and not necessarily having to be in a singular workplace five days a week for as many hours as possible. So, that's part of the challenge that we have, and I'm optimistic that we will get to a sensible place, because of the successful social partnership approach that we have. And that may mean that there is a case to change the reserved matters of employment law, and it may also mean we can do some of that, simply, with the successful partnership that we've already established here in Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm a proud ambassador of the 'Where's Your Head At?' mental health campaign, and the campaign has culminated in a Bill going through the UK Parliament to ensure that, within first aid training, mental health first aid training is incorporated, and to recognise that the physical and mental side of first aid training are equal. I'm just wondering what you are doing in the strategies that you've announced to ensure that we have mental health first aiders within all businesses across Wales, and don't you agree with me that it's important that we have champions within the workplace looking after the needs of people with mentalillhealth?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, actually, the broader point about mental health is that it's something for all of us, in having some balance in what we do and to be able to be successful in work and outside work as well. It's not just a question of those people who are struggling with their mental health; maintaining good mental health is a matter for all of us. And actually, rather than having a specific point about wanting to try to mandate mental health first aiding that, actually, my own constituency office, for example, has undertaken and we've found it beneficial, but it's then also about what we do in our wider encouragement and leadership. And actually, in the Healthy Working Wales programme, that's part of what happens—looking at the mental health of a workforce, not just physical health. It's also part of our economic contract in one of the new pillars, in the promotion of people's physical and mental well-being as well. So, it's very definitely part of what we are looking for businesses to do and part of what we expect to see moving forward as a regular part of the way that every business and public service operates.

Town-centre Businesses

Sioned Williams MS: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effects of COVID on town-centre businesses in South Wales West? OQ57835

Vaughan Gething AC: COVID has accelerated the trend we're seeing, with the change in the use of town and city centres and in particular, during the height of the pandemic, it obviously reduced demand for high-street retail. That's why, in January 2020, we launched the Transforming Towns programme to help support town-centre businesses, and that is now being led by my colleague the Deputy Minister for Climate Change.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Weinidog. When prompted to rank what they would like to see in their local town centre or high street, thriving small, independent shops came out on top in a survey conducted by the Federation of Small Businesses for its recent report, 'A Vision for Welsh Towns'. Even before COVID, town centres in my region were struggling, and the pandemic has had an especially negative effect on small and family-run high-street retail businesses. The support given to these local businesses during the pandemic has, of course, helped them weather that particular storm, but now although restrictions are easing, footfall is still low and the bills are now really piling up.
One of my constituents has run a shop in Neath town centre for much of the last 10 years. He said that with support ending and high business rates on top of that, they're really having a tough time; as sky-rocketing energy bills are presenting another headache, he said lower business rates would really help. As high business rates are compounding the challenges that town centres face, will the Minister consider increasing rates relief for town-centre retail businesses and heed the FSB's call to urgently publish its review of the business rates system and outline proposals for substantive reform that works for small local businesses? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: So, business rates reform is a matter for the Minister for Finance and Local Government. When it comes to the rates relief system, of course, we've announced rates relief for a range of businesses and we'd encourage businesses to make sure that they take up their entitlement to the 50 per cent rates relief. Now, having had, essentially, no business rates in a range of those areas to then having any business rates return will be a challenge for some businesses, compounded, of course, by the cost-of-living crisis, which is something for both the customers of those businesses as well as the businesses themselves, which will have their own energy bills as well.
So, the retail vision that we're working on is actually even more important, I think, about what we can do together to make sure that we do have a thriving and positive future for retail, both large and small. And, of course, when it comes to the business of how we have effective town centres, it's partly about a sense of place and what people think makes the place they live in special, as well as where you might visit as well. That's why we're trialling something called NearMeNow to provide small businesses and high streets with greater digital marketing capability. Because actually, as well as physical footfall, we know that lots of those businesses didn't have a digital presence pre the pandemic, and it's something that can generate footfall if people can collect items from those businesses and then look at other purchases while they're there. We continue to work with not just the FSB, but others on what the future vision for retail will be, and it's definitely entwined with the work that the Deputy Minister is leading on climate change, but also my portfolio on how we do generate a greater return for thriving high streets and places.

Quality of Life

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 8. What priority does the Welsh Government give to improving people's quality of life when developing economic initiatives? OQ57837

Vaughan Gething AC: Our vision is for a well-being economy that drives prosperity, is environmentally sound and helps everyone to realise their potential. The principles of our groundbreaking Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 shape the decisions that we make in supporting our economic initiatives.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch. The pandemic has left a lasting impression on the communities that I represent in South Wales East, and the impact has been more detrimental in the poorest places of the country, exacerbating inequalities that already existed. As we've marked two years since we first entered lockdown, has the Government considered how economic measures can incorporate measures that would encourage a healthier and fairer nation? For example, in our local government manifesto, Plaid Cymru will pledge to provide local government staff with access to occupational health services, leisure and sports facilities, as well as working with business providers to see how this access can be expanded to employees of SMEs. Is this something your Government will seek to work on in tandem with local authorities? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, of course, every local authority will have its own mandate in the near future, and I hope to be working with an even greater number of Welsh Labour leaders in the future. But, as we have seen during the last two years, we've worked effectively with leaderships of varying political shades. In the Cardiff capital region, there's a Conservative leader, some independents and Labour leaders. When I think about north Wales and west Wales, we again work with people of varied political leadership. So, the challenge will be the mandate that each local authority has and their choices about how they want to exercise the powers and responsibilities that they have too.
But when it comes to a healthier and fairer Wales, that is very much in line with the aspirations and ambitions of this Government. If you think about the questions we've just previously heard, about the economic contract, about one of its main aspects now in terms of the call for an improvement in the physical and mental health of the workforce. If you think about, from a fairer work perspective, the fact that there's going to be a significant piece of legislation, where Members will be discussing what to do on social partnership procurement and including the central concept of fair work. So, that's central to what this Government's mission is: economic growth in a sustainable manner, and a genuine fair-work nation. So, I look forward to what I hope will be constructive conversations, regardless of the verdict of the electorate and the future leadership of local authorities across Wales.

Town-centre Businesses in Carmarthenshire

Adam Price AC: 9. How is the Welsh Government supporting the recovery of town centre businesses in Carmarthenshire? OQ57828

Vaughan Gething AC: Our £136 million Transforming Towns programme focuses on the diversification and sustainable growth of town and city centres, through interventions that include the reuse of derelict and empty buildings, increasing the variety of and access to services in towns and cities, and an emphasis on flexible working and living space, mixed-use space, improved green infrastructure, and, of course, services and leisure.

Adam Price AC: We heard earlier, in Sioned Williams's question, a reference to the FSB report, which demonstrates the very challenging circumstances facing shops in our town centres, and 67 per cent of the public questioned described their town centres as being bleak or in a poor state, with only 3 per cent talking about prosperous town centres. Now, in that challenging context, does the Minister welcome the significant investment that Plaid Cymru-led Carmarthenshire County Council has announced in its towns programme—its 10 Towns programme—including investment in Ammanford in my constituency? And in thinking of what the Welsh Government can do at a national level to promote local investment of this kind, are you looking at moving away from a business rates system to a new system based on land value, where there is evidence that changing that regime would promote and encourage better investment in our town centres and would be fairer in terms of the kind of independent local shops that Sioned Williams referred to?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I welcome the Member's consistent call for land valuation to replace business rates, and, of course, as I've said earlier, the reform of business rates or otherwise is a matter for the Minister for Finance and Local Government.
But I continue to take an interest in the practical reality of where we are now and where we could be in the future, and that's why we have worked alongside towns in terms of a specific piece of work that we're doing, a specific funding, not just a Transforming Towns initiative, but the money we've given to the smart town centre, the towns into business fund, what we're looking to do to both measure and promote footfall within what we want to be thriving, living and working spaces. And when it comes to the work that Carmarthenshire council is doing, of course, they've had over £10 million from the Welsh Government in Transforming Towns grant funding, and that has helped with a range of transformation projects that the council is undertaking with that Welsh Government funding.
I do welcome the fact that, as I said earlier, local authorities of different political leaderships are looking to invest in their town centres, looking to invest in their future. I look forward to working with whoever the electors choose to continue leading and running Carmarthenshire County Council on the work that I think we will find a consensus for, in Carmarthenshire and across each of the economic regions, where, of course, local authorities are pooling and sharing a range of their resources.

And finally, question 10, Rhys ab Owen.

The Levelling-up Fund

Rhys ab Owen AS: 10. What discussions has the Minister had with partners to ensure that Wales does not lose out economically due to the levelling-up fund? OQ57823

Vaughan Gething AC: As the Member will know, the UK Government has bypassed the Welsh Government and the Senedd on the way that this fund has operated in its pilot phase. It fails to address persistent regional inequalities across the UK as it is currently formed. I continue to have discussions with partners—not just Ministers within the Government, but outside of the Welsh Government—on how best to mitigate the disruption and substantial loss of overall funding, which includes, of course, the lost £1 billion that we will face over the next few years.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. A few weeks ago, I visited the new Spark centre in Cardiff University, and I encourage all Members to visit that new research centre. They stressed to me, prior to Brexit, the amount of funding they were receiving from the European Union. Universities Wales received almost £570 million since the turn of the century. In the context of Cardiff University, that had a huge impact and it's been crucial with regard to their research and their main ventures, which have subsequently provided a huge impetus towards the local economy in Cardiff and beyond. But they were very concerned with the levelling-up proposals affecting universities in Wales. Therefore, in this context—I appreciate what you said, that you as a Government have been completely bypassed—what discussions has the Minister had with the education Minister and also with the UK Government and universities to ensure that Welsh universities do not miss out because of the UK Government's levelling-up fund? Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: The reality is that we may not be able to ensure that universities, and, indeed, the further education sector, who also were significant beneficiaries of European funds, don't lose out. That's because of the choice that has been made. It's a clear-sighted choice not to include the Welsh Government and not to meet the clear manifesto pledge to replace every single penny of former European funds.
You are right to point out the several hundred millions of pounds that have gone into the further and higher education sectors, and that's a challenge—at this point in time, we don't have the budgets to make up for all of that loss. That can't be right for Wales. Actually, if you think about any party before the last Senedd election we had about a year ago, no-one went into that election pledging to remove funding from research, development and innovation. In fact, we were all talking about what more we wanted to do, and the same, indeed, for skills. But it's a direct consequence of what's happening that we don't have the budget to carry on even at the same level in that overall picture as a result of European funding.
I've made choices to prioritise skills investment, and that means I'll be able to do less in other areas. And when you think about some of the positive headlines that have come from the way that the levelling-up department has announced recent initiatives, they talk about a rise in the percentage of allocation of money into research, development and innovation. The problem with that is that that rise that's been announced amounts to £9 million of extra funding; you have to net that off, though, against the £60 million that we have lost from EU funding. So, it's still a net loss to Wales of £51 million every year. It's all of those things that are adding up, and that is the very real challenge that we will face.
I hope that people will take up the call that was almost made by the Conservative spokesman on this issue, where he said, just a few short weeks ago in this Chamber, that Wales should not lose out and the manifesto pledge should be kept. I hope we can have clarity on the matter right across the Chamber to make the case for Wales, to make sure there is no missing billion in the next three years.

I thank the Minister.

Topical Questions

I now call on Luke Fletcher to ask his topical question to the Minister for Economy before we move on to item 2.

Baglan Energy Park

Luke Fletcher AS: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact the High Court decision relating to Baglan energy park will have on businesses? TQ611

Vaughan Gething AC: My officials and I are considering the judgment, including the Welsh Government's position with regard to a possible appeal from the High Court judgment. The Welsh Government is very mindful of the stress and uncertainty that customers of the energy park have experienced. We will continue to work with all relevant parties to try to secure a solution that protects the environment, public health and jobs. I of course have issued a written statement on this issue yesterday after Mike Hedges's request in questions to the Trefnydd.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Weinidog. I'm sure you'll be glad to know that this is my last question to you today. Jonathan Ridd, a director in the energy park, has said that small firms at the park will now have to foot the cost of diesel generators in order to continue operating, stating that given rising fuel costs some businesses will likely be paying up to eight times more for energy. This in turn puts pressure on firms' finances, with some potentially having no option but to potentially downsize, putting jobs at risk if this goes ahead. Has the Government specifically looked at how they can help businesses with the additional potential cost, and what support is on standby for any worker who might find themselves without a job?

Vaughan Gething AC: If workers do find themselves without a job, we have a range of support measures that we can take and have taken in the past. What we're actually trying to do, though, in a range of the steps that we're taking is to try to avoid a significant loss of jobs as a result of the proposed action to cut off the power supplies. What the judgment did say was that all businesses will have their power maintained until at least 4 April. That isn't a long distance into the future, and that means that there is a real imperative for my officials and I to make choices about whether we're going to appeal the judgment or whether, indeed, that can be put off because of the judicial review proceedings that I have served upon the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy in the UK Government.
Yes, I am concerned, yes, I continue to work with my officials but also other partners including Neath Port Talbot Council and Dŵr Cymru, and yes, we're particularly concerned about the impact on jobs within the park. The challenge for this is, though, that if people do use diesel generators, it isn't just the cost to them—there is an environmental cost to that as well. This is an area that doesn't have great air quality, and significant use of diesel generators may be something that Natural Resources Wales would not be in a position to permit. We have a range of areas that we've asked the court to consider. As I say, I'll need to take further advice from my officials, including legal advice, and if there is to be any further action taken, I will, of course, update Members with another written statement.

Mike Hedges AC: As mentioned by the Minister, I asked a question on this to the Trefnydd yesterday. Can I thank the Welsh Government for their very prompt action? I read the Minister's statement yesterday. I welcome the decision to serve proceedings via judicial review on BEIS. This has the potential to seriously affect the employment of people living in Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend, as you know yourself, Deputy Presiding Officer. The inaction of the Westminster Government is shocking. Is there anything further that the Welsh Government or firms on the site can do to ensure a continuity of supply?

Vaughan Gething AC: We've worked really hard over nearly a year now to try to regularise the supply since the official receiver was appointed and since there was a real threat to the power supply. There's a reason why the Deputy Presiding Officer can't ask this question even though it's in his constituency, and I've been able to update him on a range of matters outside of the Chamber. The power supply affects businesses on the park; it also affects the power supply to pumping stations operated by Neath Port Talbot Council and Dŵr Cymru. Part of our challenge is that if those pumping stations fail and there's a storm event, as we're all used to seeing on a more regular basis, there are potentially significant consequences for businesses, residents, and what it would mean for the nearby estuary environment if there was a foul water escape. That environmental and human harm is avoidable. That's why we're taking the judicial review action—because it's our contention that the Secretary of State in the UK Government does have the power to direct the official receiver. It's worth noting that, in open court, the legal representatives for the official receiver appeared to concede that that was their view too. The challenge is whether the Secretary of State will exercise the power that we say he has or whether, actually, we will end up spending lots of public money on going through another course of legal action rather than acting on what I would see as the most proportionate and least costly way of avoiding the significant harm that really could be done to jobs, public health and the environment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Minister, as you quite rightly pointed out in your written statement, there will be a very significant impact from the termination of the private wire energy supply to businesses and citizens in Baglan. In addition to the legal proceedings that have been launched by the Welsh Government, Dŵr Cymru and Neath Port Talbot Council, what else is being done to speed up the supply of energy to the site so that jobs can be secured and workers given the confidence they need to be reassured that the Welsh Government simply are not abandoning them in the mix of this situation?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think the tone of your closing remark undoes some of the more positive points that you were making earlier. The Welsh Government has absolutely not abandoned workers. I've agreed to spend several million pounds—I've outlined this in previous written statements the Member will have had the opportunity to read—to actually regularise the supply. It's not a statutory responsibility of the Welsh Government to do that, but my choice to do that was because of the direct impact on significant numbers of jobs on that park. But also, as I pointed out in response to Mike Hedges and in the regular conversations that the constituency Member has had with me, if the pumping stations fail, there is the real potential for really significant harms to residents and businesses and the wider environment. That's why we are paying for a new connection to be put in place. Our challenge is that, whilst the connection to those pumping stations is due to be maintained until 18 April, we don't have certainty that Western Power will have regularised a supply to those places by then. Who on earth would want to be in a position where a week after Easter there's a storm event, there's a power supply that is intermittent, and those pumping stations were not to work effectively? We have taken the action we have done up to this point. It's why we think it is the right thing for the Secretary of State for BEIS to exercise the power that we say he has to direct the official receiver to a different course of action, taking proper account of the direct and unavoidable impact of ceasing the power supply at that point. As I say, once I've taken further advice from my officials, I'd be happy to update Members further when I do have more to say.

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Item 2, questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being and is to be asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Mental Health Waiting Lists

Andrew RT Davies AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to tackle mental health waiting lists in Wales? OQ57840

Lynne Neagle AC: We are prioritising an additional £50 million, £75 million and £90 million ring-fenced funding for mental health for 2022‑23, 2023-24 and 2024-25 respectively. This is in addition to the £760 million invested annually in the local health board mental health ring fence, and will support the continued transformation of our mental health services to provide earlier intervention and to reduce the need for more specialist services.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that response. Last year, I questioned you over the referral times in the Cardiff and Vale health board area, and in particular the woeful referral times of the 28-day assessment period, where Cardiff and Vale were only assessing a third of patients, as opposed to a Welsh average of two thirds of patients. Additional money has been made available by the Welsh Government—considerable additional money has been made available. Very often it's not just about the money, it's about how that's implemented. Can you update me as to what improvements patients within the Cardiff and Vale area have seen because of that money and, importantly, what are the latest up-to-date timings regarding referral times? Because a third in 28 days of patients presenting is just not good enough.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank the Member for that supplementary question? I share his concerns about the continued difficulties with waiting times in Cardiff and Vale. I have met Cardiff and Vale three times separately to discuss, in detail, their approach to managing their waiting times. I think it is important to recognise that they face particular challenges in Cardiff and Vale. Two thirds of children who are waiting in Wales are actually on the Cardiff and Vale waiting list for specialist child and adolescent mental health services, and also Cardiff and Vale University Health Board is dealing with a unique set of circumstances.
In November 2021 the health board reported a 27 per cent increase in referrals for primary care CAMHS, and 17 per cent in specialist CAMHS. I know from my discussions with Cardiff and Vale—and I absolutely agree with you that it's not just about money—they are carrying a lot of vacancies still and, despite their best efforts, are finding it very difficult to recruit to those vacancies. They are now looking at different options to fill those posts. I've also asked the NHS delivery unit to specifically look at Cardiff and Vale and to look at what support can be made available. We're also looking at what other supportwe can provide as a Welsh Government and as part of the service improvement funding that we'll be investing over the next three years. I've also made it clear to all health boards that I expect them to provide a detailed plan setting out how they will reduce waiting times.
I should also add that Cardiff and Vale are taking other steps to try and manage their waiting times, in terms of accessing a digital offer to bring down waiting times. They're investing in the third sector and looking at more support through training peer support workers. So, there is lots of work in train, but more to be done. But, just to assure the Member, I will be meeting with Cardiff and Vale again in the not-too-distant future and I'm continuing to have that dialogue with them about their waiting times.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I'm very interested in your answer and I appreciate the interest you're taking in Cardiff and the Vale. Talking to my constituents, I find that far too many patients who are approaching their doctor because they've got low mood, loneliness or anxiety are offered a script rather than other talking therapies or other things, which just masks the problem and it can lead to long-term issues like agoraphobia. So, what is your strategy for increasing the number of people offered social prescribing to promote well-being, which would then free up the time of the mental health experts that we're having such difficulty recruiting to concentrate on those acute and enduring mental health problems?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much for that question, Jenny, and I'm very supportive of social prescribing as a way of linking people to community-based, non-clinical support, and regard such support as a really key part of our preventative agenda. You'll be aware that we have a programme for government commitment to have an all-Wales framework to support social prescribing. That framework is going to outline what best practice looks like in Wales, but very importantly is not going to dictate what is delivered in different communities, because there is already some excellent practice out there. My officials are currently engaging with a range of stakeholders on the proposed model, and that will be published then for formal consultation in May. And you'll be pleased to know that also, from April, our new health and social care regional integration fund is going to continue to support the social prescribing models that we know are so important.
Also, we're continuing to invest very heavily as a Government in lower level, tier 0 support, because, as you say, lots of people who seek referrals for their mental health don't actually need specialist support. So, we're continuing to invest in the call helpline. We're actually expanding—we've announced £7 million to expand the online cognitive behavioural therapy, SilverCloud, including expanding that to children. And we're looking at what more we can do with our increased funding over the next three years to actually boost that tier 0, lower level support to avoid difficulties escalating.

Accident and Emergency Departments

Adam Price AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on accident and emergency waiting times in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr? OQ57827

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Hywel Dda health board is working at speed to ensure that people in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr have timely access to urgent and emergency care. We are supporting the health board through additional targeted funding to enable improvement in quality and timeliness of care at the A&E department at Glangwili.

Adam Price AC: We're all aware, of course, of the huge pressures on our health service at the moment, but it strikes me that a situation that was already bad before the pandemic is now critical. I've had cases recently of one constituent having to wait in an ambulance for 10 hours outside Glangwili, another family, from Brynaman, having to wait seven hours for their child to see a doctor, and waiting for five hours is commonplace now. And we must bear in mind that, because of the geography of the area, people very often will have waited a very long time for an ambulance to arrive and then will have had to travel long distances to Glangwili in the first instance.
And, of course, we are aware that this is a problem across Wales at the moment. I'm looking at A&E live, and you have to wait up to nine hours in Wrexham Maelor and up to eight hours in Prince Charles Hospital. The first step in solving such a crisis, Minister, is to recognise that there is a crisis. Are you willing to accept that there is a crisis in terms of the ambulance service in Wales at the moment?

Eluned Morgan AC: I don't accept that there's a crisis, but I do accept that there is huge pressure on the service at present. I've had another meeting with the chief executive of the ambulance service this morning, as I have regularly, because we are determined to improve the situation. Of course, the thing to remember is the fact that this is part of a whole system, and the fact is that, at present, there are 129 people in Hywel Dda who are ready to be discharged from hospital, but that's difficult because the situation in the care service is so challenging. And it's good that we're working together on solving that particular problem. But it isn't one that we can solve overnight. We have to remember that there are 118 people currently in hospitals in the Hywel Dda area who are suffering from COVID, and that brings additional pressure.
I'm pleased to say that the Welsh Government has been providing additional funding to assist the situation—£25 million. Hywel Dda will receive at least £1 million of this funding to develop centres for primary care. Also, I visited Glangwili recently, and I went to see that same-day emergency care unit. It's worth seeing that service, because what they're trying to do is ensure that people have another means of being seen the same day, rather than their having to go to A&E.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, the major hospital service in both Adam Price's constituency and my own, on the eastern border, is Glangwili hospital. And I'm sure you will agree with me that the A&E waiting times at this hospital are simply unacceptable. The latest figures available show that 46.5 per cent of patients are spending more than four hours in A&E before admission, transfer or discharge, and 16.5 per cent—a sixth of all patients—are spending more than 12 hours waiting, the worst in the whole of the Hywel Dda health board region. One of the contributing factors to these rates is the difficulties that hospitals are facing in discharging patients, with backlogs being seen all through the hospital journey—something that I know that the Health and Social Care Committee are currently looking into. With today marking the second anniversary of the nation being locked down due to COVID-19, it is important we recognise the enormous pressure that our healthcare professionals have been working under for the last 24 months and to thank the NHS staff for their service. But what actions are you as the Minister, and this Welsh Government, taking to address these worrying figures and improve the hospital experience for patients throughout Carmarthenshire?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sam—thanks very much for that. And I'd like to join with you in thanking all of our NHS and, indeed, our care workers for the incredible work they've done over the past two years. And I think it is worth reflecting on the pressure that they've been under for that prolonged period.
Part of the issue that we have, of course, in Glangwili is actually the fact that we have trouble recruiting, and there is an over-reliance on agency and bank and overtime in terms of what happens in Glangwili. And that, of course, means that they have to pay more money, which pushes the health board into even more debt. So, all of those things are issues, and, of course, I guess that's one of the reasons why the health board is suggesting consolidating A&E into a new hospital, so that you can recruit easier. That is certainly something that they're suggesting and, obviously, that is something that my officials are working through at the moment.
I do think that there is a whole-system issue here. The fact that we have now introduced the real living wage, from April, and have established a bridge for those who are in the service already to get to that real living wage, with additional support, we hope will encourage people to stay in the service, so that we can get those people that you set out, who are in hospital, who shouldn't be there, who need to be discharged but there's nowhere for them to be discharged to because of the fragility of that system—. So, we do have to address that issue. We've started doing that through the real living wage. We have a care commission that I know Julie Morgan is working very closely with, but this is a whole-system issue and certainly something that I'll be bringing up with the chairs when I meet them tomorrow.

Mike Hedges AC: Morriston Hospital A&E is the main A&E centre for eastern Carmarthenshire, especially the Amman valley, as well as Neath Port Talbot and Swansea. A&E in Morriston is very busy and there are regularly several ambulances waiting outside. Does the Minister agree that we need to get those who are not accidents or emergencies seen by either their GP or a pharmacist, and can the Minister indicate what percentage of A&E patients are returned home either immediately after being seen or within 24 hours of being admitted?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Mike, and I absolutely agree that we do need to provide alternatives to A&E, which is one of the reasons why we've invested an additional £25 million and set out six priority actions that we expect health boards and the ambulance service to deliver on.
We're hoping that urgent primary care centres—there's £7 million earmarked for those—will provide a new model for service delivery. I know that Swansea is likely to get at least £0.5 million of this funding. And we're anxious to see more same-day emergency care services, and shortly we'll be publishing national guidance on that in order to improve patient flow.
But, on top of that, I am absolutely delighted to say, at last, we have a national 111 service where people can phone up for an alternative view before they go to A&E so that they can be sent to the appropriate service for them. Cardiff introduced their new 111 service on 16 March, and because of that now we will be able to promote that service as a national service that is available to everybody in Wales.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call on the party spokespeople. First of all, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, on this second anniversary of COVID restrictions being introduced across Wales and across the UK, certainly on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, I think we can all agree across this Chamber—. I want to thank everyone who has kept us safe, and our thoughts are, of course, today particularly with the friends and families of those who have lost loved ones during the course of the pandemic.
Today is also a year and a day since your predecessor published the health and social care recovery plan. Can I ask, Minister, what progress you consider has been made since that recovery plan was published a year ago?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Russell, and I'd like to join you in thanking our health and care workers who have worked so diligently to keep us safe and to protect the people in their care over that very difficult period, but also to extend my sympathies to those who have lost loved ones in very difficult circumstances, where they weren't even able to give them the kind of send-offs that they may have wanted for them, to celebrate their lives.
The health and social care recovery plan is being implemented. It is part of a programme that is ongoing. Part of that has been the implementation of things like the real living wage, to make sure, and that's gone quicker that we'd hoped. That was set out within that health and care recovery plan. Also, you'll be aware that we set out some expectations for the service in terms of delivery. We'll be hardening up some of those expectations in the planned care recovery programme that we will be publishing in the next few weeks.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister, and I attach myself to the first part of your answer there.
In regard to the recovery plan, I noticed that Nick Bennett, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, today talks about NHS waiting times in Wales causing a public health crisis. So, it's certainly my view that we are a long way from even getting on to a recovery plan. And a recovery plan, to me, should be significantly about reducing the backlogs in our Welsh NHS, and that's not something you did address in your answer. When I mentioned this to you a couple of weeks ago, you talked about,'We only saw an increase of 0.2 per cent in December for Welsh NHS waiting lists', but it's my view that we should not be celebrating that kind of—. Well, it's not an achievement at all.What we do need to do is absolutely focus on significantly reducing the waiting times backlog, and of course the Welsh NHS and health boards should be supported at every level to eat into those backlogs. And of course, behind every stat—. We talk about stats, don't we, Minister? I know you'll agree with me that behind every stat there are real people that are in pain waiting for months and for years for treatment, and I know that you'll find that unacceptable yourself. But this is about how we reduce those significant backlogs.
I understand, Minister, you've asked health boards to ensure that none of their patients are waiting more than two years by the end of February, just gone, and also waiting for more than a year for urgent outpatient appointments by the end of January, January just gone. So, can I ask you, Minister, have these targets been met, and what direct actions are you going to take to ensure that health boards and the health service are urgently reducing these shocking—and they are shocking—health times so that we are not in that public health crisis?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I am extremely concerned about the backlog; it keeps me awake at night. The fact is that I'm spending most of my time these days trying to make sure that we have a very clear recovery plan. That planned care programme will, as I say, be published in the next couple of weeks. We're just trying to finalise the details on that.
Tomorrow, you'll be aware that new waiting lists will come out, those results. I've been absolutely clear and open and honest. I think it's really important that we manage expectations here. The fact is that we've just had an omicron variant that is now again increasing, and we're seeing more people in our hospitals at a time when, frankly, we were hoping we'd be able to really go at this with vigour.
We're just finalising and looking through the integrated medium term plan proposals from the health boards, where they set out what they hope to have as targets. We know that targets haven't been met. We're not the only country in the world that hasn't seen targets met. I don't think there's any country in the world that has met targets in the face of the COVID crisis. So, I don't think there are any surprises there.The challenge now is how do we get back on track. And part of what we're doing is to make sure that we've got the staffing in place to make sure we can address that backlog, particularly when we know that thestaff at the moment are already exhausted. We published the fact that, actually, we've invested £0.25 billion in training new people, something that they missed out entirely from the English plan, and I think it's really important that we understand that we can't address this backlog without the right skills and the right people to help us out.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. I would of course understand that you were put in a very difficult position when you became the health Minister, because your predecessor left the position in a very, very difficult state. We were in a difficult position well before we entered the pandemic, and I appreciate the difficult task that you've now got in front of you, Minister.
When I talked about targets being met, you referred to, 'No-one's meeting targets; targets aren't met around the world', but these are targets that you brought forward yourself—as I understand it, but correct me if I'm wrong—to health boards just in recent months, or certainly last year, to make sure that targets were met by January and February just gone, as I outlined. So, I think it's completely reasonable for me to ask have those targets been met and to understand the position in that regard.
You have talked about the new figures for waiting times coming out tomorrow, and I understand that's of course the case. As it stands at the moment, the last figures published show us nearly 50,000 patients in Wales are waiting over two years for treatment—over two years for treatment. And that figure is double—double—that of people waiting in the entirety of England, and England has a population 18 times the size of Wales. So, can I ask you—and this goes back to my earlier point about you being put in a very difficult position and we were in a difficult position before we entered the pandemic—can you explain how this utterly dire comparison ever came into being in the first place?

Eluned Morgan AC: I can explain it. And first of all I'd like to correct you on something, and that is that actually we were working through that challenging backlog. In fact, we only had 9,000 people waiting for 36 weeks prior to the pandemic. And, yes, we set out some targets, but, actually, that was before delta hit us and before omicron hit us and before BA2 hit us. So, all of those things of course are going to throw out whatever plans that we had. We had to divert people to make sure that people had the booster in order to protect them. It makes perfect sense that, when you're confronted with that kind of situation, you change tack and you try and do the best you can under the circumstances.
And I can explain why our waiting lists are longer than in England. First of all, we include diagnostics and therapy in the way we count; we include follow-up appointments after diagnostic tests—again, not something they include in England. We count people if they are transferred between consultants and they start a new pathway. So, all of those are good reasons why actually we count in a far more honest way, I think—an open and transparent way—than they do in England.

Peredur Owen Griffiths on behalf of Plaid Cymru.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Deputy Minister, last month, Wales recorded its worst ever results for mental health provision for young people. Your own figures showed that 78 per cent of patients referred to specialist child and adolescent mental health services were left waiting for over four weeks for their first appointment. I hope you agree that that is unacceptable. I would like to hear what steps have been taken to improve matters. I'd also like to hear more about the commitment in the co-operation agreement on testing the sanctuary model. This would support young people in crisis or with an urgent mental health issue by providing community facilities run by trained third sector staff, with clear referral pathways into NHS services if needed. Diolch.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Peredur, for that question. And as I said in response to Andrew R.T. Davies, of course I'm concerned that we've got young people waiting longer than they should. I do think that the waiting times situation is distorted slightly by Cardiff and the Vale. As I said to Andrew, two thirds of the children who are waiting in Wales are actually on the waiting list in Cardiff and the Vale. But we are taking a wide range of steps to bring waiting times down. We've made it very clear to all health boards that we expect them to take action to reduce waiting times. We are backing that up with funding, for which we're expecting to see developed plans setting out how they will bring waiting times down. I think it's very important to recognise too, though, that lots of the young people who are referred to specialist mental health services won't actually need a specialist service, and that's why we're also investing in those lower level services so that we can intervene much more quickly. It would be really helpful if all Members could encourage their constituents who contact them to take advantage of that lower level support that is available, because, unfortunately and understandably, some families do see specialist CAMHS as the gold ticket, really, and we really want families to access the support earlier on. I should say as well that, as well as the steps that health boards are taking to reduce waiting times, they should all have measures in place to make sure that young people are triaged appropriately, so that, if young people's needs change, they will be seen more quickly.
You asked about the commitment in the Labour-Plaid Cymru co-operation agreement. As you've highlighted, that commitment is to test sanctuary provision for young people in Wales. We currently have sanctuary provision for adults, but none for young people, and the development of those models are very important as part of our crisis care pathway for children and young people. So, as part of the agreement, we will be taking forward those pilots in different parts of Wales, so that we can examine them. But I should be very clear as well that what we want is for young children and young people not to be reaching crisis point, and that's why we are investing so much money and also focusing so much effort on our whole system reform, so our whole-school approach to mental health, andthere's been another £12 million for that announced just today. That links to the early help and enhanced support in our NEST/NYTH initiative. So, the numbers we expect to use the sanctuary provision will be small, and we should be aiming for them to be even smaller, because we don't want young people's difficulties escalating.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response, Deputy Minister.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Very soon, Ukrainians will be arriving in Wales in significant numbers as the UK finally pulls its finger out and does its bit for refugees resulting from Putin's aggression. Understandably, many of these people fleeing their homeland will be traumatised as a result of what they have experienced in the last month, and will require specialist help to deal with what they have seen and experienced. There will be children fleeing Ukraine. Can you update the Senedd about the preparations that have been undertaken ahead of the arrival of Ukrainian refugees? These poor people have already been let down by the Tory Government due to the slow and abject response to the refugee crisis. I hope they will not be let down once again when they arrive on these shores. Diolch.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Peredur. We've all been horrified by what we are seeing, and the trauma that people are experiencing in Ukraine is unthinkable, really. I'm pleased that we are taking a different approach in Wales with our supersponsor programme, which will mean that, when Ukrainian refugees arrive in Wales, they will be linked up with appropriate services. We'll be making sure that they register with a GP, and they'll be able to access all mainstream health services. That will include mental health support. The health support for those arriving in Wales will be provided in line with the guidance that we issued in 2018 on the health and well-being of asylum seekers and refugees. I'm also pleased to report that we've already translated materials into Ukrainian and Russian to support the mental health of those arriving from Ukraine on initial stabilisation, which will be really important when people are traumatised. You can't expect people to come in and be ready to have therapy; they're going to have to be feeling safe and stabilised. So, that's been done, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists have also published specific support materials to help with stabilisation during the initial resettlement phase. We've also got our CALL mental health helpline—that's also available to support people arriving in Wales and their families, and CALL has access to something called Language Line, which means that, if somebody wants to access services through a language like Russian or Ukrainian, they'll be able to do so.

Cancer Patients

Russell George AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting cancer patients to receive the correct treatment? OQ57818

Eluned Morgan AC: Cancer treatments should be provided in line with National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines. National optimal pathways have now been published in Wales across a range of cancer types. This means that expert clinicians have set out what should be delivered for different types of cancer, no matter where in Wales someone is diagnosed.

Russell George AC: Thank you very much, Minister, for your answer. I wrote to you back in September regarding access to cytoreductive surgery, and at the time you outlined that the reason why treatment wasn't routinely available in Wales was following the advice from NICE, as you've just pointed out in your answer to me. But, since that letter and your response, I'm sure you'll be aware of two high-profile cases across Wales, where one lady moved to England to receive the relevant surgery, and another took legal action in order to receive treatment after being refused twice for treatment in Wales. Now, as I understand it, the treatment is available to patients in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but only in exceptional circumstances in Wales. Of course, I hear your answer in terms of following the advice of NICE, but I would be grateful for your assessment of why there is a different approach in Wales, and why is it that cytoreductive surgery is being denied, or is certainly less routinely available, in Wales to Welsh patients who have peritoneal cancer, and I would ask you would you be willing to review the access to this type of treatment.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I think it is important that we set out those national optimal pathways, and they have been developed for different tumour sites. And what we're trying to do is to make sure that we have value-based intervention. Of course, we have a unique approach in Wales, in the sense that we have a single, unified waiting time, which is different from the way they do it in England.
So, there are different kinds of cancers, and certainly when it comes to pancreatic cancer, for example, it's one of the six least survivable cancers. It is important that people understand that there are prescriptions, like pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy, which are available for all health boards in Wales, and they should apply that locally. So, where it is available, part of what we're trying to do is to disseminate awareness and produce materials to inform clinicians throughout Wales of the importance of prescribing the appropriate medicines. So, I hope that gives some clarification.

Question 4 [OQ57841] is withdrawn, so question 5, Delyth Jewell.

Rare Cancers

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I note Russell George's question just now. Minister, you'll be familiar with the case of my constituent, Maria Wallpott—

No, can you ask the question first of all, please?

Delyth Jewell AC: Oh, forgive me, Dirprwy Lywydd. Forgive me for that.

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. What are the principles the Welsh Government expects the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee to follow when making decisions about whether to provide treatment for rare cancers? OQ57851

Delyth Jewell AC: Forgive me, again, for not asking that.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much.

Eluned Morgan AC: We expect the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee to provide all treatments, including those for rare cancers, if they are recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence—NICE—or the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group.

Now you can ask your supplementary.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch. Forgive me, Minister, it's because it's on a very similar—well, the same topic. You'll be familiar with the case of my constituent, Maria Wallpott. Earlier this year, she won her case in the High Court to be allowed potentially life-saving cancer treatment. The treatment would have been automatically available to patients elsewhere in the UK, but she was refused by a committee that is tasked with taking into account economic factors when deciding whether to approve treatments in Wales. Several similar cases have been raised with me; most recently, a constituent whose father has a cancer that needs treatment but was told that funding was, again, unavailable in Wales. Mrs Wallpott's case has shown that the decision to refuse that treatment was unlawful. Now, other patients are being refused cancer treatments that could save their lives, and I'm concerned that decisions are being made based on funding instead of on only clinical deliberations. So, Minister, could you tell me, again, in addition to what you've said already on this, why the situation is so different in Wales? And will the outcome of Maria Wallpott's case have any effect on how these decisions are made, please?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, the Member will understand that I can't comment on individual cases, but I am keen that WHSSC considers the finding of the judicial review and that they ensure that the individual patient funding requests policy is adopted fairly, consistently and equitably. So, whilst Welsh Ministers can generally direct local health boards in Wales as to the functions they exercise, responsibility for individual patient funding requests ultimately rests with LHBs and with health specialised services. We have intervened in the past to make sure that they speed up the handling of IPFRs by the NHS, and I'm pleased to say that we have seen good progress. But, of course, I am anxious that we learn from any case where judicial reviews have come against and worked against the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: As the Senedd will know, it is a sub-committee of WHSSC that holds delegated joint committee authority to consider and make decisions on requests to fund NHS healthcare for individual patients who fall outside the range of services and treatments that a health board has agreed to routinely provide. For us in north Wales, this has seen patients go to Manchester and Liverpool for cancer treatment, Oswestry for orthopaedic operations and Liverpool for heart treatment. When the national health service was founded, it could not have been envisaged that there would now be, with devolution, bureaucratic borders between treatments offered in the four corners of the United Kingdom. There are severe delays in access to treatment by requesting that the panel sees written evidence, a request form, other documentary evidence, and it is so complex, Minister. And for the Member that's muttering over there, during my first—

You have less time to ask the question, so focus on the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: During my first term in this Senedd and in the Health and Social Care Committee, concerns were raised about these delays and this complex bureaucracy around WHSSC. Could you, Minister, have a look at reviewing the bureaucratic delays on treatments? And will you liaise with all Welsh health boards to ensure that they do have agreements in place with health boards elsewhere in the UK that provide treatments that we do not, and just make it more of a seamless way of going about things? Because I have many, many constituents now in Aberconwy who are really caught up in the bureaucracy of all this. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks. Well, I think that it's fair to say that there have been issues in the past, and I think that we've made good progress since 2016. The fact is that the total number of IPFR requests is decreasing, while the proportion of those approved is increasing. So, those are the facts. So, things are definitely improving. I do think that it's fair to say—. Look, we're never going to have a situation where highly, highly specialised medicine, that you can do all of that within the confines of Wales. Frankly, if you have a very, very rare condition, then wouldn't you want to go to the best place possible in order to get that sorted? And if that's in England, so be it. That's fine. So, I think that we've just got to be realistic about getting the best care for individuals within Wales. Certainly, of course we want to try to get those treatments done as quickly as possible, but I do think that the situation has improved quite dramatically since 2016.

North Denbighshire Community Hospital

Gareth Davies AS: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on the north Denbighshire community hospital? OQ57839

Eluned Morgan AC: The full business case for the Royal Alexandra Hospital scheme has been received by the Welsh Government. I will make a final decision on the scheme, and the health board and local Members of the Senedd will be informed as soon as that decision is made.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. My constituents have been promised this improvement to community health for years and years—nearly for a decade now. You keep telling us, time and time again, that the restoration of the Royal Alex is always just around the corner, without a spade going in the ground or anything tangible for the residents of Rhyl and Prestatyn to see. When I raise this issue with the Welsh Government, they pin the delays on Betsi, and then Betsi lay the blame at the door of the Welsh Government. My constituents don't care who is to blame. They just want clear answers and their services up and running. Minister, how will you work with the local health board to remove any road blocks and ensure that the north Denbighshire community hospital is delivered in the shortest possible time frame? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much, Gareth.You'll be aware that the restraints on our capital funding are very real, not just for the next coming year, but also for the three years after that. I think that it's probably worth also pointing out that the initial costs of the scheme were estimated to be £22 million—

Gareth Davies AS: They've doubled in that time.

Eluned Morgan AC: —and then the outline business case, when that was produced, that increased to £51 million, and now the full business case is £72 million. So, we are in a very different situation from when the proposal was initially put before us, but obviously, I will let you know once that decision has been made.

Access to an NHS Dentist

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. What is the Welsh Government doing to help residents in Alyn and Deeside access an NHS dentist? OQ57849

Eluned Morgan AC: We are working on system reform in dentistry and moving forward collaboratively with the reform programme in 2022. This includes working with practices to improve access, experience and quality of dental care.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog, for the answer there. The First Minister explained just yesterday the challenges that we're facing in dentistry at the moment in Wales and across the United Kingdom. But residents in Alyn and Deeside are very much feeling the pinch of those challenges, and they are coming to me, as their directly elected Member of the Senedd, because they are struggling to see an NHS dentist. Will you commit today, Minister, to your officials speaking with not only the practices but also the health board, to work out a route-map to ensure that everyone who wants to see and needs to see a dentist in Alyn and Deeside can access an NHS dentist in Alyn and Deeside?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much, Jack. You'll be aware that there is real pressure on dental services, partly because of COVID and the fact that that aerosol spray really means that the spread of COVID is more likely. Recovery is happening, but obviously that is very difficult and very slow, and I acknowledge that there are areas where it's more difficult to access dental care than others.
I will be speaking and meeting with the health board chairs tomorrow, and the chief executives, and this is certainly something that I've very much got on the agenda, and I'll be making sure that they address this issue in their integrated medium-term plan proposals.

Mark Isherwood AC: I have relatives in Flintshire who themselves have struggled to access an NHS dentist, who thankfully recently received treatment after weeks in great pain. We know that, in January, Betsi Cadwaladr insisted that action is needed to address dentistry in north Wales, after 83 dental posts were lost in Wales during the year, and the British Dental Association warned that significant numbers of dentists were planning on leaving the NHS, saying that NHS dentistry is hanging by a thread because without NHS dentists there would be no NHS dentistry. And earlier this month, Bupa Dental Care handed in notice of termination for their Flint branch, adjacent to Alyn and Deeside. It's 16 years since the North Wales Regional Committee raised concerns about a forthcoming NHS dental crisis in Wales, and here we are, all these years later, in these circumstances.
So, what action will the Welsh Government now take to engage with the British Dental Association to address their concerns with the dentistry contracts, that these reduce focus on regular check-ups, force dentists to choose between old and new patients, and fund dentists by 15 per cent less than six years ago?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. We're continuing to work with the British Dental Association to explore how the reform of the national dental contract can encourage dental practices to collaborate at a local level. I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear, in relation to Bupa in Flint, that the health board plans to recommission replacement services in the area as early as possible.
It is probably worth emphasising that we have provided an additional £3 million this financial year, and what we're seeing is, actually, dentists are not picking up that money. We're putting the money on the table, but they would rather work in their private practices, and that's a very difficult challenge for us, but we are making a longer term commitment: £2 million additional funding recurrently to support increased provision. We've also given almost £0.5 million to health boards to support dental practices to provide NHS services and to install new ventilation equipment. So, we're doing all we can. At some point—. There's more we can do. There's always more that we can do, and certainly that's one of the reasons why I have got this as one of my key points on the agenda to discuss with the health boards tomorrow.

Question 8 [OQ57838] is withdrawn, so, finally, question 9, Sam Rowlands.

Unpaid Carers

Sam Rowlands MS: 9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support unpaid carers in north Wales? OQ57831

Julie Morgan AC: Today I announced a £500 payment for over 57,000 unpaid carers across Wales who are in receipt of carers allowance. Also, unpaid carers in north Wales continue to benefit from the additional £10 million we allocated for a range of carer support services in 2021-22, including £3 million for respite.

Sam Rowlands MS: I thank the Deputy Minister for her response, and if only every question I asked had such a quick resolution in terms of support, and giving those unpaid carers that £500. But, in all seriousness, this payment clearly recognises the incredible role that unpaid carers have played through the pandemic and I'm sure it is welcomed by all.
If I may, though, I'd like to ask you about the restoration of services for carers as well, though. So, as we know, unpaid carers save the NHS and taxpayers billions of pounds a year by providing this important care. But despite nearly all COVID-19 restrictions easing, the services unpaid carers rely on have not been prioritised, with services still significantly reduced or even closed entirely. And recent research by Carers Wales found that just 8 per cent of carers say that day services and care homes for respite breaks have been fully reopened, and only 16 per cent said sitting services were fully operational. So, what action will you take to urgently prioritise and monitor the restoration of these much needed services for carers? Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much for that question, and thank you for your recognition of the importance of the £500 payment to the carers who will be eligible for it. I think that the point you raised is very important, because we know that unpaid carers did manage, in some cases, through the whole of the pandemic without having any additional support at all. In fact, some of them didn't take any support, because they were so anxious to look after their loved ones. I have been approached by a number of Members of the Senedd about their concern about the lack of the quick recommencing of the local services.
I'm very well aware of this situation, as are the officials, and we have approached the local authorities, in particular local authorities where we've been alerted to the fact that carers are aware that the services they used have not been reopened, particularly day services, and have urged them to do so. I'm aware that many of them have still not opened, so the officials have regular meetings with the directors of social services and we'll be continuing to urge them to reopen. I think we understand that local authorities and the staff have had a very tough time and many of them were redeployed to help carry out some of the essential services that have been needed during this period, but we do know, of course, that the support for unpaid carers is absolutely essential. The Welsh Government is trying to build in as much support as it possibly can with the hardship fund and with respite funding. It is crucial that we do get those services up and running again, so I can assure the Member that I will be redoubling my efforts to try and encourage local authorities to open those services. Thank you.

I thank the Minister and the Deputy Ministers.

3. Topical Questions

We move on now to the second topical question this afternoon, and I call on Mark Isherwood to ask the question.

Ukrainian Refugees

Mark Isherwood AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the progress being made to accommodate Ukrainian refugees in Wales? TQ610

Jane Hutt AC: Significant progress has been made to prepare to receive people fleeing the war in Ukraine so that they can seek sanctuary and safety in Wales. The UK Homes for Ukraine scheme is now open and the Welsh Government supersponsor route will be live from Friday.

Mark Isherwood AC: I thank the Minister for ringing me on Monday on the train to brief me on this, and I also note the update issued by the Welsh Government this morning, which states that they continue to work closely with local authorities, the NHS, other public services and the third sector to ensure support is available for people fleeing the conflict and arriving in Wales through the Homes for Ukraine scheme.
As you say, the Welsh Government will become a supersponsor under this scheme. On 13 March, the First Ministers of Wales and Scotland sent a joint letter to the UK Government proposing the Welsh and Scottish Governments as the overall supersponsors for the schemes in Wales and Scotland. However, although the UK Government launched the Homes for Ukraine portal on 18 March, whereby an organisation could be selected as a sponsor, when the option is selected, the only listed organisation still is the Scottish Government. Although you've stated that the Welsh Government will also be able to sponsor people directly and people arriving via this route will be directed to one of the welcome centres being set up across Wales before going on to medium and long-term accommodation, why does the Welsh Government still not appear as a sponsor option on the Homes for Ukraine portal, and can the Minister outline if and when people will be able to select the Welsh Government as a sponsor option on this?
Further, what support can you provide to people like the Flintshire constituent whose wife went to Poland to bring back her Ukrainian mum—thankfully successfully, and she's now in Flintshire—but who has been told that they can't access the cash card for refugees because of a lack of information and funds, that the £350 rehome scheme doesn't apply to his mum-in-law, that she can't access pension credits until she has a full visa, which will take two months, and that she can't register with their GP, despite having health issues? I fully appreciate some of those are reserved matters for the UK Government and some are the responsibility of the Welsh Government, but given your overall role as a supersponsor, I'd be grateful for your response.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for the questions, Mark Isherwood. As I've said and as has been made very clear in the information that we've provided on our bespoke page on the Welsh Government website about what we're doing to support Ukrainian refugees, we are due to become a supersponsor under the UK Government's Homes for Ukraine scheme this Friday. We wanted to make sure we were ready and able and prepared for that, to go live, and that, of course, is going to happen on Friday. But actually, we've been ready over the last weeks, certainly last weekend when the UK Government scheme went live, in case people came to us and needed us. We were ready and we had accommodation available. But the full scheme, as a supersponsor, with all the preparedness that has had to take place, commences on Friday.
I think it's important just for colleagues and for Members to know that this will initially involve up to 1,000 people actually skipping the need to identify a UK-based sponsor, and instead being sponsored directly by the Welsh Government. We won't be selecting those eligible to apply; people fleeing Ukraine will be able to select the Welsh Government from the system until our initial cap of refugees is met. As you know, we're opening welcome centres across Wales—and they are all across Wales—to ensure that all of those we're directly sponsoring can receive a high-quality welcome and are directly supported from the moment they arrive. And then, from the welcome centres, people will be moved into longer term accommodation across Wales.
There's a huge amount of work, 24/7, by local authorities, by our officials in the Welsh Government, the NHS and the third sector. I've had a really important meeting today with a range of Ukrainian community support, including the north Wales link that you drew to our attention, Mark, and many groups and Ukrainian voices who are going to actually also respond and help in the ways that were raised in terms of supporting children and young people in earlier questions to Lynne Neagle.So, it is all in place and it's all going to operate from Friday throughout Wales. It's going to be crucial that they just can come direct. The Welsh Government scheme will enable them to come direct to us for that support.
On the second question, the points you raised are reserved matters, but we can make representations on behalf of you and constituents to the UK Government. We're working very closely with the UK Government, clearly, in terms of all Ukrainian refugees who come to us. If it's the Homes for Ukraine scheme, and that direct matching, obviously, we are going to get the data from the UK Government to ensure that we can get everything in place. Can I just say one point that is important in terms of the arrangements? Quite a few people are coming through the family visa route. That might be the route, in fact, that your constituent has mentioned. We don't actually know yet—we've asked the Home Office—how many are coming through that route, but I suspect that may be where your constituent has come through. So, it is very valuable to have from Members today some of their experiences in terms of what is happening to them and to their constituents.

Sioned Williams MS: Minister, the University of New Europe, a collective of academics from across Europe and the US, has published a comprehensive document that contains emergency contact details and funding opportunities for scholars, students, artists, cultural workers, journalists, lawyers and human rights activists fleeing Ukraine, Russia and Belarus. As we accommodate and welcome refugees fleeing the crisis and its effects in Ukraine, our universities, educational and cultural institutions have the chance to offer a breadth of opportunity and support for those coming to Wales. Providing this would help refugees settle in and feel involved in their communities, as well, of course, as enhancing the diversity in thought at our universities and among our academic and cultural networks. Would the Government consider co-ordinating a response from our universities and cultural institutions so a similar guide and system of support could be provided? How is the Minister currently working with our universities and cultural institutions to provide support and opportunity to refugees, and will the Government provide financial support for this response?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. It's really important that you've drawn attention to yet another inspiring network that is working across Europe, and I would be grateful for those contacts so that we can make links with them. Our universities are rising up to the challenge. Many of them already have links with Ukrainian students, Ukrainian universities, and those links are actually being forged now. Indeed, just in terms of across universities in Wales, I think you'll find pretty much every one of the main universities is already linking up. And then we bring all of the universities together. So, they are looking to how they can, themselves, link with their own partnerships with Ukrainian universities, but also what they could offer to other young people and, indeed, families coming through.
I do think, also, that your point about the cultural institutions of Wales is very important. This is a cross-Government response. You can see from the answers in terms of health and social services, from housing, that all departments of the Welsh Government are engaged in this, but particularly the cultural institutions. This will also be the offer, the welcome, that we're giving to Ukrainian refugees as they come to Wales. We have a welcome pack that's being developed. I think it was interesting, when I met with many of those from, for example, Voice of Ukraine Wales, how they've got resources. Also the children's commissioner is linking up with the Ukrainian children's commissioner; we met with her today. There are lots of educational resources that have been brought together as well. But I think in terms of the cultural and higher education institutions and the ways in which we can bring their links together and when Ukrainian refugees arrive, this is part of the welcome offer to them as they come and we support them here in Wales.

Alun Davies AC: The generosity of spirit demonstrated by people in Wales, across the United Kingdom and across our European continent contrasts quite disappointedly with the mean-spirited approach from the United Kingdom Government. Minister, what impact will the Nationality and Borders Bill have on our ability to reach out to Ukrainian families? You will be aware that yesterday Tory MPs in the House of Commons voted to impose a potential four-year prison sentence on any Ukrainian refugee who arrives in the United Kingdom without having the right papers. At the same time, the Nationality and Borders Bill rips up the international convention on refugees, which was written in the aftermath of the second world war and led by the British Government. What we've got in London is a Government turning its back on the human impact of war, and a Government that is more concerned with its own propaganda on its own right wing than reaching out and taking care of families who've been affected by war. What will we do, as a Welsh Government, to demonstrate that here in Wales the nation of sanctuary isn't simply a rhetoric but a reality?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for that very topical question, Alun Davies. The First Minister has reported in past weeks that, when he wrote to the Prime Minister at the end of February, making sure that we were offering to play our part in terms of being a nation of sanctuary and being very clear about our position in terms of Putin's aggression, he did actually take the opportunity, in his correspondence, to emphasise that the Welsh Government believed that the UK Government should reconsider the proposals in the Nationality and Borders Bill, which we believe creates a two-tier system between asylum seekers depending on their route of entering into the UK. We quite clearly made that point to the Prime Minister. So, we have to recognise the point that Alun Davies makes today. It was, in fact, the UK shadow Home Secretary who said yesterday in the debate that the Nationality and Borders Bill will make it a criminal offence, as you say, for Ukrainian families to arrive in the UK without the right papers, with a penalty of up to four years in prison, at a time when the British people have made it clear that we need to help Ukrainian refugees. This is deeply shameful—those were her words. But we here in Wales, as a nation of sanctuary, want to provide a quick, safe and warm welcome to Ukrainians in Wales. I do believe that our supersponsor route, which we're working on alongside our Scottish colleagues, will eliminate a key bottleneck in the UK system. That's crucial to ensure that those coming to Wales don't need to already know a household in Wales who can sponsor them.

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item this afternoon is the 90-second statements and, first of all, we have Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch. Llywydd and Members of the Senedd, during a visit to the Great Orme Bronze Age copper mines in Llandudno on Friday, I was absolutely amazed to learn how, 4,000 years ago, copper and copper axes made there were exported from Llandudno to places as far away as the Netherlands, Sweden and Poland. Uncovered in 1987, during a scheme to landscape an area of the Great Orme, the copper mines' discovery changed the way that we understand, in ancient Britain, a civilised and structured society 2,000 years before the Roman invasion existed. Our town's most famous headland provided almost 98 per cent of the metal in Britain and was home to the largest prehistoric copper mines in the world.
It's also worth noting that this mine had some of the harshest of conditions, with the belief that very small children would have to crawl through the very tunnels that I saw just to retrieve the malachite green copper. I hope that the Senedd will agree with me that it is incredible that metal from Aberconwy armed the armies of the ancients, and that the constituency, and therefore north Wales, had a key role in connecting people across our continent thousands of years ago. This incredible story really does highlight the unique history we have in Wales. The team at the Bronze Age mines should be extremely proud of the incredible contribution they have made to the story of Wales, Britain and Europe. And as Llandudno welcomes, on average, 10 million visitors every year, I hope each and every one of you will visit this constituency, where you can learn more about our fascinating history. Diolch.

Russell George.

Russell George AC: Today in the Senedd I wanted to highlight the fantastic work of a mental health support group called the Walking Men of Mid Wales, and the group does exactly what it says. And the group was set up by Andy Coppin and is run each week by a number of volunteers. And it was set up in a bid to support those who were struggling with anxiety or isolation, but also as a mechanism just to allow men to meet and talk with each other as well and become friends with each other. The group was set up as a result of, sadly, a number of men taking—younger men taking—their own lives across the area. The group meets on a fortnightly basis in Welshpool, in Newtown, and the walk routes are planned in advance, and men walk around together, chatting and talking and sharing their experiences of life and their own life experiences, as well, in order to support each other. I've been on the walks myself, and it's encouraging to see the walks growing in numbers week by week. So, I'd like to thank Andy for setting up the group and for his commitment and dedication and his passion, but also I'd like to encourage others to get involved in setting up an initiative in their area as well. It's such a simple initiative but a great initiative, just facilitating men gathering together and walking and talking and sharing life experiences with each other.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Religious buildings

Joyce Watson AC: Right. We'll move on now to the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, on religious buildings, and I call on Mike Hedges.

Motion NDM7953 Mike Hedges, Darren Millar, Jane Dodds, Rhys ab Owen
Supported by Alun Davies, Russell George, Sam Rowlands
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the continuing closure of religious buildings, including churches and chapels, throughout Wales.
2. Calls upon the Welsh Government to work with the different denominations in Wales to discuss the future of these buildings.

Motion moved.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I would like to thank my co-sponsors and those who supported the motion for this debate. Jane Dodds will be responding to the debate.
This debate is not about religion, it's about our built heritage. It's about the importance of church and chapel buildings in our community. Members cannot have failed to notice the continuing closure of religious buildings, including churches and chapels, in their own constituencies. In recent decades, we have seen a gradual and continual decline in what can be referred to as the two great traditions of the nineteenth and early twentieth-century Welsh society: that being the tradition of attending the local chapel and the local public house.
Wales is often considered the land of castles, but we have substantially more chapels, churches and other religious buildings across Wales than we have castles. We have some great church buildings and chapels, such as St David's cathedral and Tabernacle chapel in Morriston, which has been described as the cathedral of nonconformity, as well as many others of historical significance and architectural merit. Wales’s ecclesiastical history and heritage is an incredibly significant part of our built and cultural heritage. Many who do not attend the chapels or churches of Wales attach a huge significance to their architectural merit and the status they carry within their communities. Ask someone about St David's, and they will mention the cathedral. Ask people about Morriston, and the most likely response will be Tabernacle chapel.

Mike Hedges AC: As you look around Wales, it is obvious that, in this day and age, Wales now has a huge excess of chapels and churches for its current religious needs. What we have seen in response to this overprovision is the closure of many, in an attempt to not only save money, but also to save some of the really magnificent buildings of the same denomination.
The upkeep of these remarkable buildings has fallen on the shoulders of the remaining members of the congregation, most of whom vary from the elderly to the very elderly. As one deacon said to me, 'We inherited this chapel from our parents, but our children do not want to inherit it from us.' The same deacon said, 'What I like most about going to chapel is that it's the only place where I, as someone over 60, am considered one of the young members.' The congregations are declining, and you have got to remember how many chapels there still are. According to Blwyddiadur Undeb yr Annibynwyr, there are over 600 independent chapels in Wales and four independent Welsh chapels in England, but that number will almost certainly continue to decline.
We have witnessed former chapels being sympathetically adapted or converted for a number of different uses, ranging from flats, which are the most common, to houses, businesses, restaurants, offices, community centres, and, in some cases, converted to places of worship for other religions. Unfortunately, others have become derelict, burned down, or have fallen down. One notable example of a former Swansea chapel that has been sympathetically adapted is the chapel of Christmas Evans, which now hosts the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Swansea offices, but they allow people to visit and see its plaque commemorating Christmas Evans. It is amazing how many people visit, despite the fact it is not advertised, you have to engage in substantial research to find out where it is, and, after having done that, you have to arrange with the NSPCC to visit.
There are people, such as Daniel James—better known as Gwyrosydd—the composer of 'Calon Lân', buried at Mynyddbach chapel, and Evan Roberts, the preacher who led the great revival from Moriah chapel in Loughor. These were just two of the great preachers and hymn writers from Wales. I could fill the whole speech going through famous Welsh hymn writers and—[Interruption.] More worryingly, I might start mentioning relatives of other Members in here. [Laughter.]
But, as I say, most of the smaller chapels and churches have been sympathetically changed into housing or offices. Within Swansea East, concentrating on Morriston, where I live, and Plasmarl, where I was born, I will take you through the position of the chapels and churches. Philadelphia chapel in Morriston, a former Methodist chapel, has been converted into offices and flats. Calfaria chapel, Soar chapel and Seion merged to form Seion Newydd, which I attend. Calfaria chapel has fallen down. All you can actually see where Calfaria chapel was is stones on the ground, and that was a chapel in use up until 50 years ago. And now all you've got is stones on the ground, at the top of Banwell Street in Morriston.
Soar has become a part of the Catholic Church, and is used as a centre for small concerts and events. St John's church, known locally as the church in the middle of the road—it's the only building on the roundabout—is undergoing renovation to become a cafe, gallery and commercial unit on the ground floor and mezzanine floor, with three loft-style flats above it. I used to describe it as the only Welsh-speaking Church in Wales church, but I've apparently been told there are others. But it's one of the very few Welsh-speaking Church in Wales churches in Wales. It's a phenomenal building, but it's been left for 10, 15 years; it's now coming back into use. Grove mission has been turned into flats.
Most of the other chapels have been sympathetically turned into flats or houses, or, in the case of one, turned into a care home for people with learning difficulties. Some of these renovations, such as Grove mission, have been excellent, leaving the outer facade and sympathetically remodelling inside. Mynyddbach chapel has been restored after several years of being empty, and is now the Daniel James Gwyrosydd centre. Both the church in Bonymaen and the church in Portmead have been turned into Faith in Families centres, and are doing an excellent job working with parents and children. And can I just say what a good job Faith in Families do in my constituency?
This is where the good news ends. Horeb chapel in Morriston was demolished, and a housing association built flats on the site. St Paul’s church in Landore has been empty for several years. It is a large church, and whilst there have been several suggestions of use, nothing has happened. Libanus chapel in Cwmbwrla, after being empty for several years, burned down, and was partially demolished on the grounds of safety. It has two walls currently left standing, which of course Cadw still list. Cwm chapel, which was also the scene of a fire, has been demolished, despite being listed by Cadw. Aenon in Heol Las has closed, with no imminent plans for it coming back into an alternative use. The same is true of Bethania in Morriston town centre. Moriah chapel, where my father-in-law was the only remaining deacon, closed, has been sold several times and has planning permission for conversion into flats, but no development has taken place.
There are far more chapels and church buildings than there are people wanting to use them for worship. It takes us to what happens next. Now it is mainly the larger churches and chapels that remain. They cannot easily be converted into flats or offices as the smaller ones were. Most are listed, including Tabernacle in Morriston, which is a grade I listed building. The smaller churches and chapels, they've closed. There's no problem. The easy low-lying fruit, the easy changes, that's actually happened. And can I just I say, there's generally been a good job done? Not everywhere, but, in general, a good job done.
The action I am asking that the Welsh Government works on with the different denominations in Wales is to discuss the future of these buildings. Cadw listing buildings is not the answer, and sometimes it's part of the problem, in that you cannot make changes to the building, it will sit there until it falls down or is burned down, and far too many buildings end up being burned down when they're left empty for long periods of time.
Wales has a huge reputation for its preachers, church and chapel buildings, which is something we need to build on. I think we need to look at the American tourism market; we need to produce denominational tours in Wales. It's not just America, but countries in east Asia, such as Singapore. We have got the situation where New Siloh in Landore, one of the largest nineteenth century chapels, used to sit over 1,000 people, but they were a lot thinner in those days—[Laughter.]—so now it only sits about 600. But it has been taken over by a church in Singapore. Prior to being taken over, it had a congregation of seven, but it only had that large congregation because two chapels had merged into it to give it five and two to give it seven.
So, the question is: should we in Wales be aiming at the American tourist market? Should we be aiming some of our tourism advertising to promote our great religious history, its people and its buildings? I think there is a huge opportunity to promote tourism relating to our chapels, churches and the great preachers and hymn writers. This is an opportunity that we in Wales need to take before it is too late. We can save some. It is not possible to save them all. I urge the Welsh Government to talk to the different denominations and produce a strategy for the churches and chapels of Wales.
Firstly, we need a priority list. Secondly, we need a plan of how buildings can be used in the future—offices, flats and houses are all possible. This will work, as I have illustrated earlier. Turning them into community buildings must be an option. This will need financial support and community buy-in. What we cannot do is leave a large number of elderly people as the sole guardians of our heritage. We protect the castles of our Norman conquerors; we should do the same for the major chapels of what was for many of us our grandparents and great grandparents a place of worship and a major community centre. If this motion is passed and the Government does nothing, or it fails to pass, what will happen is that more and more of these buildings will close. More will become derelict, and a large part of our history will be lost. Now is the time for action. In 10 years’ time it will be too late for many of these buildings.
Can I also ask for a national museum for our religious history? We've got a wool museum, an industrial and maritime museum, we've got a slate museum. I just think that we ought to be having a museum to carry on and show our religious history, because, although it's been a living history for many of us, in 50 years' time, it won't be the living history for the people then. So, please can I urge the Government to think of that? And if they're looking for a site, can I throw in Tabernacle?

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, and first I'd like to put on record my thanks to Mike Hedges for submitting this extremely important Member's debate on religious buildings, and also my thanks to Darren Millar, Jane Dodds and Rhys ab Owen for co-submitting. I'd also like to highlight my register of interests—I'm a trustee of a church as well.
It's a pleasure, of course, to be called as a supporter to this motion and to speak here today. As the motion states, it's extremely concerning that we continue to see the closure of religious buildings up and down Wales, and I'm sure all Members here today will agree that faith is an important aspect of Welsh life. Religious buildings are often the heart of communities, and, at times, bring all parts of our community together. Even for non-believers, faith is what many people reach out to in times of need, and it's often these buildings that symbolise the importance of this faith and the support that faith has to offer.
As someone who has been brought up through church, as the son of a church minister, I know that, whilst these buildings are merely structures to hold the church, the significance is beyond bricks and mortar—it's what they represent. It's these buildings that so often hold important family and community memories of celebration, memories of grief, and every emotion in between. It's these buildings that so often have been the gathering place through generations, the support in dark times and good times, and I argue they'll need to be in place for future generations too.
But, sadly, as we know, and mentioned by Mike Hedges already, the future of many buildings of religion and of faith across Wales is not secure. And it's also sadly the case in my own region of North Wales, with many important buildings having an uncertain future. For example, St Mary's cathedral in Wrexham, a grade ll listed building, is currently facing a worrying time with the cathedral hall needing a full refurbishment and the heating system needing to be replaced. Also coming to mind is Llanrhychwyn church in the beautiful Conwy valley, which many people claim is the oldest church in Wales, although I'm sure Mike Hedges may argue with that for a place somewhere in his patch, but that dates back to the sixth century originally.
I mention this because these buildings aren't just important for our faith here and now, they're important to highlight our history and they are our nation's landmarks as well. The amount of history in these places is spectacular, telling the story of a significant part of our lives and culture here in Wales. It's important that people can continue to use these buildings and understand our culture and history in the future as well.
So, as point 2 of today's motion states, now is the time for Welsh Government to work with all denominations in Wales to discuss the future of religious buildings, and most importantly ensure they're here to stay for our future generations. I want to thank all Members for submitting this really important debate and I call on the Welsh Government and Members across the political spectrum today to support today's motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhys ab Owen AS: And thank you very much to my friend and colleague Mike Hedges for tabling this debate. Where else in the world would we have a debate like this? Well, perhaps in Chubut state assembly. It's lovely, isn't it? It's quintessentially Welsh to have this kind of debate on the chapels of Wales. Mike Hedges and myself might be Members of different political parties, but we have a great deal in common, and one of those things is that we're both members of the Baptist Union of Wales. I welcome you to cheer that point.
One name given to chapels in the past was 'tŷ cwrdd', which literally means meeting house—that's where the community came together. And without being too sentimental about it, very often, it was the few pennies saved by the people that built our chapels, from Salem Rhydcymerau in the constituency of my friend Mabon ap Gwynfor, which was immortalised by Curnow Vosper and Endaf Emlyn, to Morriston's Tabernacle, the cathedral of Welsh non-conformity, as Mike Hedges often reminds us.
The truth about our nation’s chapels is the wonderful poem by Williams Parry about the hall in Mynytho:
'It is built of poverty;—not stones / but love is its masonry; / shared aspirations are its timber; and shared commitment is what raised it up.'
As a carpenter in the Rhondda—Buffy Williams—in the final decades of the nineteenth century, my great grandfather worked on a number of chapels, including his own chapel, namely Noddfa Treorchy. This chapel held over 1,500 people—more even than Morriston's Tabernacle, Mike—and during a visit in the late 1970s Penri Jones, the author of Jabas and the editor of Lol, said this about Noddfa Treorchy: 'The chapel is as a sporting arena and the pulpit as a stage.' Visiting the vestry, he said that there were better facilities in that vestry than in many modern schools. It was here that the composer John Hughes played the organ. And it was the first meeting place of the world-famous Treorchy male voice choir.
But, for a number of reasons—be they social, political and economic—the congregation at Noddfa, like many other chapels, declined. Penri Jones ends his visit by saying: 'There was once joy here, but there must have been some catastrophic neglect to cause it all to disappear with such finality.' The prophet's words came true, because within a few years, within five years, indeed, Noddfa was burnt to the ground. It all disappeared in such a final way, as Penri Jones foresaw, all of the resources, the community and musical resource, had gone.
Huw T. Edwards, the Labour trade unionist who was described as Wales's unofficial Prime Minister, said,

Rhys ab Owen AS: 'I want to see at least seventy-five per cent of the places of worship in Wales pulled down or used in a more effective way.'

Rhys ab Owen AS: Well, I agree, to some extent, with Huw T. Edwards. We need to use these buildings in a much more effective way. But I also agree with the other Huw Edwards, and what debate on chapels could we have without the BBC's Huw?He said this:

Rhys ab Owen AS: Places of worship have made an immeasurable contribution to Welsh life: they taught thousands of children to read and write; they fostered the strongest possible sense of community; they provided an essential platform for Welsh culture; they often campaigned for workers' rights and provided welfare services when government offered next to nothing.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Two years ago, the doors of all places—

Samuel Kurtz MS: Will the Member give way?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Of course.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Rhys, and I am enjoying listening to your speech here, but isn't it a fact that Sunday school itself—we're talking about the education of young people through chapels, myself going to Sunday school—is another form of education, which I think is incredibly important? Do you agree that Sunday school is an important part of these chapels as well?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Yes, certainly, I agree, Sam, 100 per cent.
Two years ago, all of the places of worship closed their doors due to COVID, and for many of them their doors never reopened. I can think of three examples in the Cynon Valley: Siloa Aberdare, the place where a fiery public meeting was held to protest against the betrayal of the blue books, the venue for the first meeting to discuss establishing Y Wladfa, and the location of the organ on which the beautiful hymn 'Rhys' was composed; the Welsh chapel in Hirwaun, where Jennie Eirian and Eirian Davies started their married lives, and where, according to Penri Jones, the Sunday school members could quote the poet Gwenalltand Karl Marx in one sentence;Bethesda Abercwmboi, where the author Kate Roberts established the first Plaid Cymru branch outside Caernarfonshire in 1925, and the chapel provided practical support during the general strike in 1926 and also the miners' strike in the 1980s. All closed during COVID.
The situation is complex, as Gethin Matthews says in his Barn article, because of the title deeds of chapels and also charity law. And, I'll finish with this, acting Llywydd, where there is a will there is a way. In north Pembrokeshire, we see the latest campaign by Councillor Cris Tomos and others has ensured that Brynmyrnach chapel has been added to the number of local community assets there, such as the Tafarn Sinc—one of my favourite pubs, Mike. The intention is to open a heritage centre there and provide two flats for local people in the old chapel. These places are important, not just to our heritage and not just architecturally, but they're important as locations that belong to the community and to the people themselves. Therefore, it's an honour to support my colleague Mike Hedges' motion. Thank you very much.

Joyce Watson AC: It's five minutes, actually, not six. I call Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: It's a real privilege to join this debate and to follow such strong and powerful contributions to this, a Parliament, which in itself forms a part of a continuum of our history. We talk about our chapels and our churches, but we can also talk about our synagogues, mosques and temples, a part of the tapestry of who we are. And when I think about our religious history, I also, like others here today, think about our social history, our cultural history. The nation that was born in the shadow of Rome and built chapels that exist today, like St Govan's, is as important as perhaps St David's is more recognisable.
And, then, as the nation took on its political identity, Mike Hedges spoke about the competition, if you like, or near warfare in some cases, between chapels and pubs at the beginning of the last century. And when I read about the social history of Tredegar, there was that stirring conflict if you like. The temperance movement was born of our chapels and the trade union movement tried to ride two horses, and I'm not sure how successful it always was at different times. But it is a part of who we are, because we can all talk about these things. But there's no other country in the world that would have built Soar y Mynydd where it was built and stands today—I think one of the most evocative places in our country. But we can all talk about our local chapel and our local places.
Members here will know that I've lost both my parents over the last few years, and reading through some of the papers of my local chapel, Ebenezer, Sirhowy, what you see in the minutes of the chapel is a history, a social history of Sirhowy and a social history of Tredegar, and the place of the Welsh language. The debate: should we have our services in the Welsh or the English languages? They decided, first of all, certainly, that they would preach in English but pray in Welsh. If there isn't a metaphor for Wales and for Tredegar, that probably is it.
But this also stretches back and informs who we are today. When Griffith Jones introduced his circulating schools, he didn't just preach the Bible, but he ended illiteracy; he created a literate nation in the medium of Welsh, and that led to reaching out again and creating a different cultural experience. And Evan Roberts, competing in 1905 with the Welsh Rugby Union for who should be remembered as the winner in 1905. The revival led to an explosion in an identity that was built upon our chapels. And what we did there, of course, was to create a very different Wales, because the Wales that had existed before was the Wales of somewhere like St Martin's in Cwmyoy. I think it's one of the most beautiful churches in the country, and those of you who know it, up in the hills above Abergavenny, will know that you walk through that crooked nave and you look at how the geology and the geography of that place have created a church in use today, but somewhere that is uniquely Welsh and also a unique and beautiful place, and a very evocative place. But we read through our churches and our chapels and our religious buildings our history of our country.
I agree with the points made by Mike Hedges in introducing this debate, and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to those. She will know that the heritage centre that is being built in Merthyr, from the synagogue, speaks about the history of the Jewish community in the south Wales Valleys. And I think we still have to come to terms with parts of our history, and certainly the anti-Jewish riots in Tredegar at the beginning of the last century are something that we haven't come to terms with yet today. I think, in the way that we protect the bricks and mortar, what we have to do is to translate that into the present as well and into who we are as a people and who we want to be as a nation.
I would also seek to ask the Minister how she believes that the Historic Environment (Wales) Act that was passed by this place, I think, back in 2016 can be used to provide protection for these places, because until we have protected these places, we literally will not have the bricks upon which we can build this future. So, we have, in this debate this afternoon, stretched our minds back to the shadow of the Roman empire, where we built our nation, and where that nation was forged, both in the industrial revolution and all the other parts of our history that we are familiar with, but also in the chapels and the churches. What happened there was not that a Government created a people, but that a people created a culture.

Joel James MS: I'd like to thank my fellow Members for bringing this item to debate. As many here already know, I'm disheartened to see so many historical buildings across Wales being abandoned and then, consequently, torn down and demolished to be replaced by newer, nondescript buildings that do not contribute to the identity of an area. Removing buildings such as former churches and chapels ultimately changes our urban landscape, and, in my mind, is having a negative effect on the way we relate and identify ourselves with the place we live. Moreover, we are losing our tangible connection to our own history. Whilst museums do provide appropriate examples, as we develop our urban areas, we risk eroding the identity of our communities.
Personally, and as has already been said, religious buildings are very much a part of our community, and they have provided a place of security and hope for generations of people through some of the most troubling times of our nation's history. As we remove our places of worship, we are unintentionally signalling that our loss of religiosity is a good thing, which in my mind is a sad state of affairs, because it normalises the view that our spirituality and connection to a higher power are no longer relevant.
In my home village of Llantwit Fardre, the Bethesda Calvinistic Methodist chapel and the green corrugated iron St Andrew's church are now but distant memories. I'll never forget Trinity Calvinistic Methodist chapel and the impact that it had on me when I drove around the corner one day to see the building that had been in my community since 1913 was, without warning to the rest of us in the village, just a pile of bricks on the ground. All of these buildings contributed to the history of my village and shaped it in one way or another, and now I fear that the next generation and people moving into the area will see my home village as just one massive housing estate without a history or distinct identity of its own.
I believe that, whilst communities may have moved away from worshipping in these buildings, and so their original use has faded, we should not be so ready to allow their destruction, because there's no doubt in my mind that communities still want and would welcome them being saved and repurposed, still serving the community in the spirit in which they were built. I would also argue that organisations that own these religious buildings would welcome their reuse rather than their demolition and would be willing to offer their help and services to do so in one way or another. With this in mind, I want to emphasise that as a nation that recognises the importance of the well-being of our communities, we need to do more to help them repurpose these religious and other historic buildings. Recently, I met with a housing association concerning their plans to demolish an old school in my region, and one of the reasons why they're doing this instead of renovating it is because of the building's poor energy efficiency and the lack of financial support to do anything to improve it. Given this and the unprecedented need to build an energy-efficient future, we need to provide a more suitable level of public resource for communities, agencies and religious groups to upgrade the energy efficiency of these buildings and to help them meet decarbonisation targets.
Finally, as has already been mentioned, I think that given the value of religious buildings to the community and their potential value to tourism, such as pilgrimage routes and historic trails, we should be providing clear evidence and support that communities can repurpose or rejuvenate their religious buildings and enable them to continue to serve their communities before any more are lost. Thank you, acting Llywydd, and I would urge my fellow Members to support this motion. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: I wasn't going to speak in this debate originally, but Mike got in touch and inspired me to think about how important religious buildings have been to my family, so I did want to say a word or two.

Delyth Jewell AC: I remember a priest writing a little snippet in a parish newsletter, and it said, 'The church is not a museum for saints, but a hospital for sinners.' That's always stuck with me—that these religious buildings we have in Wales were constructed not just to the glory of their God, but as a balm for the congregation, a place of solace, worship and peace. These buildings are to be found on nearly every street in Valleys towns, as in the old joke that each village in Wales will have the chapel you go to as well as all the chapels you don't go to, though more and more these days, they're the chapels very few attend.
These buildings—the point has been made—are more than masonry; they're cathedrals of our collective memory, our connection to our past. There's a church in Partrishow with a fifteenth-century rood screen. In the churchyard a cross marks the place where Gerallt Gymro preached the third crusade. When you stand there, you can imagine that you hear the words. The synagogue in Merthyr shows the tell-tale fairytale architectural tenets of nearby Cyfarthfa castle and Castell Coch, a building that reflects our more recent history and the face it gives to the world. If buildings like this were lost, how much of our history would be buried with them? Only the foundations remain of Abaty Ystrad Fflur, where legend has it Dafydd ap Gwilym was laid to rest. Of Abaty Cwm Hir, nothing remains almost at all. Too many grand, illustrious spaces call to mind the Harri Webb line that 'nettles grow on the altar where the saints fasted and the pilgrims prayed.'
These buildings are not only important to our past. They play a central role in community life as hubs for coffee mornings, bazaars, collection points, foodbanks. Throughout COVID-19, chapels, churches, synagogues, mosques, gurdwaras and temples have been used for outreach, connecting members of the community, organising food runs, Zoom choirs, buddy schemes. They offer a lifeline for residents of all faiths and none. I'd love to see more religious buildings getting support, getting guaranteed funding so that they can keep their doors open and heating on. I know the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales has written to Members ahead of today's debate to point out that funding, be it from the National Lottery or the cultural recovery fund, will vary year on year, and less funding is available in Wales as compared with England.
Lots of dioceses and lots of congregations do rely on donations from the people who go and are associated with their congregations, and this will be true of all faiths. But, because of the pandemic, fewer people attend services or mass or prayer. They aren't there to put the money in the basket. What more certainty can the Government, I wonder, give to religious communities in Wales that their buildings can be not just protected, but strengthened and supported? Because I'd repeat again that they are not just monuments to the divine, but a living testament to the goodwill of residents in our communities—those of all religions, those without any religion, those who come together to support people who need it, to provide solace to strangers and, to those needing it, peace.

Buffy Williams MS: Diolch, Mike, for bringing this debate forward. They say that nothing in life is certain but death and taxes. Well, I can tell the Chamber today that nothing is certain but death, taxes and churches and chapels in Rhondda. You can't drive from Cymmer up to Treherbert or from Trehafod up to Maerdy without passing a church or a chapel. I've had many a conversation with Rhys ab Owen about the cymanfas held in Rhondda and the old Noddfa Baptist church in Treorchy, and that's because, during the industrial revolution, churches and chapels were pillars of working class communities and were a fundamental part of our forefathers' lives. Some remain staples of our communities today, but we've seen a significant decline in active churches and chapels, with very many either sold or left derelict.
Growing up, I used to attend Llanfair church before it made way for housing. Whether you're religious or not, attending these religious buildings gives you a sense of family and belonging. They stand as community hubs, and I'm sure Members in the Chamber will agree with me that our community groups and charities play a vital role for those who most need support in our communities. From mental health and well-being support, through social prescribing, and providing free meals for families and our older generations, to volunteering and work opportunities on the doorstep for our young people, community groups and charities provide such essential services, but the future of many, unfortunately, hangs in the balance due to the uncertainty of rent arrangements. We need to take away that barrier and help these community groups and charities obtain permanent homes. I don't see why religious buildings can't provide this home for them.
There are two examples in Rhondda of churches that have now become more than religious buildings. In Penrhys, Sharon works hard with an army of volunteers to meet the needs of the families living in her community. Residents on the estate will tell you that, without the church and without Sharon, life would be far more difficult for them. We also have Ynys y Werin St Anne's Community, who are working tirelessly to raise money to buy St Anne's church for the community. St Anne's church is a beautiful building and the building is very, very lucky to have such a passionate group fighting for it. I can see just from the empty churches and chapels in Rhondda, and the two examples I have just mentioned in Penrhys and Ynyshir, the positive difference Mike's proposals could make in communities right across Wales. I will be supporting today's motion.

Joyce Watson AC: And finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, acting Llywydd, and thank you very much to Mike Hedges for bringing forward this debate. I've very much enjoyed it, so far, anyway, and I want to limit my contribution. But it's a very timely debate, especially as we consider, some of you who will remember last summer, the discussion in Dwyfor Meirionydd about Capel Tom Nefynin Pistyll, with the community there trying to save that chapel for community benefit, but, ultimately, the chapel was bought and is going to be developed as a holiday home. So, we have to look at community needs with regard to these resources.
It's a debate that's important to me too on several fronts. First of all, I'm a son of a minister, and have attended several different chapels over the course of my life. I'm also a lay preacher, or I was before being elected, and it's sad to say that the last three chapels at which I gave a sermon have closed. I don't know if that's a reflection on me or the lack of congregation there. Those chapels are now empty, although one has been turned into offices.
I also have a family interest in this issue. My uncle, Dewi-Prys Thomas, was a renowned architect and he championed the chapels of Wales. Scholars from outside Wales have constantly argued that there is no such thing as Welsh vernacular architecture, but Dewi-Prys Thomas disagreed. He argued that the small chapels of Wales were a clear and perfect example of Welsh folk architecture, with the chapel being the heart of the community, drawing people together. So, there is architectural value for these buildings.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I am the son of a minister, like you. Would you agree with me that one of the best ways of moving things forward would be to have multidenominational meetings to bring local communities together?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I agree. Peredur has made an important point there. There are chapels empty, so why shouldn't the denominations come together to make use of a chapel that's only used part time at the moment? That's an important point from Peredur.
But we mustn't forget too that these buildings weren’t constructed solely for religious purposes, but deliberately as community assets, as has been mentioned by Rhys. Indeed, if you read the articles of establishment for a few of these chapels, they mention religious purposes, but also political and social purposes specifically, with large political meetings, very often, held in these chapels, with assemblies and concerts too. They were buildings that were focal points for the community, and they were multipurpose buildings, so it’s right that we discuss how to take on these buildings and repurpose them for alternative uses today.
Thank you very much to Mike for the debate, and I very much hope that the motion will be accepted unopposed. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Can I thank Members of the Senedd for bringing forward this really important debate on the issue of closure of religious buildings throughout Wales, and for the passion with which all of you have spoken on the issue—an issue that I think is of concern to all of us? Because we all have these buildings, don’t we, in our constituencies. Alun Davies referred to the synagogue in Merthyr Tydfil, which is going to be repurposed to become the Welsh Jewish heritage centre for the whole of Wales. I think about Capel Aberfan, which is now standing empty, and the importance to that community in the immediate aftermath of the disaster in Aberfan.
Places of worship are absolutely embedded in the heritage of every community in Wales, and to hear Rhys ab Owen, Joel James, Delyth Jewell, Buffy Williams and Mabon ap Gwynfor all talking so passionately and inspirationally about examples from their own lives and their own constituencies was wonderful to hear, because collectively they contain more history than perhaps any other type of building that we see every day. There are no less than 3,000 places of worship listed in Wales, a powerful acknowledgement of both their architectural and historic significance. Many have not met the criteria for statutory listing at a national level, but they are of course still very important at a local level.
The community connections that have sustained all of those buildings over centuries are sadly wearing very thin in many areas. I absolutely agree that it is vital for Welsh Government to work with different denominations to discuss the future of these buildings. I'm pleased to report that my officials in Cadw are doing just that. It's also vital that we are imaginative and work with a range of other partners to find a sustainable future for these precious buildings that restores them to their place at the heart of our communities.

Dawn Bowden AC: And I'd like to start by perhaps giving a few good examples of where this approach has been successful and then briefly explain how Welsh Government is currently working with partners at a strategic level to address some of these shared concerns. So, there are, for example, conversion schemes that respond to the social value of religious buildings, with new uses that deliver community benefit. And Welsh Government has invested heavily in some of these, including the library in Hanbury chapel in Bargoed. The Transforming Towns programme supports projects that develop underused or empty properties, including several former places of worship. And I particularly commend the commitment of Circus Eruption, a youth charity, which has taken on the former St Luke's church in Cwmbwrla in Swansea. They work mostly with young people, including refugees, asylum seekers, young carers and the disabled, and they want this historic building to be a place for everyone. As a charity with no previous experience of heritage, they also want to inspire other charities to see that heritage buildings create opportunity.
The Faith in Affordable Housing programme of Housing Justice Cymru is working in partnership with a number of Welsh housing associations to release surplus land or buildings for affordable housing. The organisation is currently working with the Architectural Heritage Fund on a pilot project focused on the conversion of historic redundant chapels.
Places of worship are also being encouraged to investigate ways in which they can open their doors for community use, alongside their original purpose. An important exemplar, which I'm sure Mike Hedges is aware of, is the Morriston Tabernacle, where ancillary spaces will be adapted for community use, leaving the glorious chapel interior intact and in use.Now, while opening the doors to meet local community needs is important, it won't necessarily provide sufficient income to help keep the roof on. However, places of worship can reach out to a much wider community to help sustain those buildings. For instance, there's a growing interest in faith tourism, and we're beginning to see some imaginative new ideas to realise its potential, including bookable experiences and themed trails promoted by Visit Wales and the National Churches Trust.
In exceptional cases, redundant religious buildings may be maintained largely unaltered by trusts specifically set up for that purpose. And there are two trusts that operate nationally in Wales. There is Friends of Friendless Churches, which rescues and repairs redundant Church in Wales churches and keeps their doors open, and it currently has some 28 churches, mostly in rural areas. Then there's Addoldai Cymru, which was established to care for a small number of the best nonconformist chapels across Wales, and it currently looks after 10 chapels. Both organisations receive annual grant support from Welsh Government to continue their work.
So, adaptation for new uses that respond to the full significance of religious buildings, the introduction of additional uses that help to sustain a building, reaching out to a variety of new communities and new interests or vesting in trust are just some of the ways in which our religious buildings may be given a future. But all of them depend on people—to care for the buildings, to open the doors, to welcome visitors, to deliver a community service. They show the overarching importance of sparking new connections between buildings and their communities, recognising that these buildings belong to us all. So, I'm encouraged that there is much already going on to try to tackle this issue, and I would like this activity to be more widely shared and celebrated.
Now, Members may be aware that, in 2015, the Welsh Government, through Cadw, published a strategic action plan for places of worship in Wales. The focus of the plan was on people and communities using, enjoying and looking after historic places of worship, and foremost of its actions was setting up a places of worship forum to share information and best practice and review ongoing needs. The forum attracted representation from across the sector and for several years used its meetings as an opportunity to learn from a range of projects across Wales. These physical meetings were, of course, halted by the pandemic, but the forum took the opportunity to reflect on its direction and is now in the process of establishing itself on a new footing. Supported by a grant from Welsh Government, again through Cadw, the National Churches Trust is organising a series of forum events to undertake a formal review of its work and of the strategic plan. And in addition, they are using online webinar meetings to reach their grass roots. Three such meetings have already been held, bringing together speakers to offer professional advice, with passionate voices from communities across Wales talking about their own experiences. The two most recent events focused on community engagement and fundraising. Later this month, the next event will consider the environment and responses to climate change.
But I am very taken with Mike Hedges's suggestion that we could explore the possibility of such an empty church building, or chapel building, being used as a national museum for religion. I think that this is something that this forum could look at as an opportunity to see what possibilities might open up for some of these empty buildings.
Now, I'm under no illusion about the scale of the challenge. But when I survey the initiatives that are already under way, and I see the energy and the commitment that's dedicated to meeting this challenge, I believe that many of the elements that will help us re-establish the vital link between buildings and community are already in place. It is that link that will give our historic places of worship faith in their future.
So, I am happy to support the motion and agree that we need to work with the various denominations to secure a future for these buildings. Of course, we will need to work with other partners, but I hope that I have explained that we are seeking to do just that.

Joyce Watson AC: I now call on Jane Dodds to reply to the debate.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Where else would you hear from the sons of two ministers, in Sam Rowlands and Mabon ap Gwynfor, the mention, specifically, of 48 chapels and churches and other religious buildings, and two brilliant sayings, one from Alun Davies—I loved that—that he heard about people preaching in English and praying in Welsh, and also, from Delyth Jewell, that churches and chapels are not museums for saints, but hospitals for sinners?
We've had a fantastic debate this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi i gyd—thank you very much to you all. We heard from Sam Rowlands how important faith is to us in our communities, and that religious buildings are at the heart of our communities. They're not just historic landmarks, but we need to use them, because they are here to stay.
We heard from Rhys as well around the range of uses for our chapels. They are places of historical and political debate, they are places where we have cymanfa ganus, where our brilliant hymn-writers started—we heard many of those names come forward—choirs, where education is—and Samuel Kurz also highlighted the importance of Sunday schools—we've got welfare services running out of them, debating halls, places where politicians started.
Then we heard from Alun Davies how they are part of our social and cultural tapestry, and how important that is, really. But they're not just part of our social and cultural tapestry. They are part of our future as well.
We heard from Joel James how important chapels and churches are, and that possibly the disappearance of them might erode our identity. They must bring security and hope to us all. They must be saved and repurposed, and they actually need help also to decarbonise and to become greener.
Delyth Jewell, thank you very much—diolch yn fawr iawn. It's important to hear how those chapels are important to you, and that we need certainty for these buildings. They need to be protected. They are living testimony and places where we can find our peace.
From Mabon we heard how important it is for chapels to be held as chapels, and the example that he gave in his own community of one being converted into a holiday home. We heard as well about his previous role as a preacher, and we really—. I would have loved to have heard you preach, Mabon. But the chapel is the centre of our community. They are community assets. That's what you said, Mabon, and how important that is.
And we heard from Buffy Williams as well about the chapels in her community in the Rhondda, which were actually bringing hope, bringing things alive in her community, and how that was giving, actually, the people in her community something different and positive.
Thank you, Minister, for your response, and to hear about the plans that are ongoing, the strategic action plan we know about, looking at the places of worship forum—and we do look forward to hearing more about that after its pause after COVID—and the National Churches Trust as well and what they're doing. But we must move on, as you've said, and you're under no illusion, but working together we surely have to see a way of finding our feet in terms of supporting chapels and churches and other religious buildings, because, as we've heard, they are actually now at the heart of our community and they're providing hope. They're providing different experiences to those communities, places where older people go, the lonely go, people who need help and support, but also places where we can sing and enjoy ourselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Jane Dodds AS: Great to hear as well, Minister, that you're willing to consider Mike Hedges's suggestion around how we have a museum of churches, how we can have a walking trail, a travel trail, of churches and chapels across Wales. And I do hope that we'll be able to move forward on those suggestions. I would like to thank Mike Hedges for introducing this debate today. It's made us really come alive in the Senedd, and, although I'm not there, I can really feel the warmth and the love that many of you have, and I'm sure that's shared across the Siambr, for many of these religious buildings and churches and chapels. We've all been in them. We've all had times of sadness. We've all had times of happiness as well. Let us make sure that we keep those at the heart of our community. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee Report: 'A new direction for HGV Drivers—Addressing HGV drivers shortages and related supply chain Issues'

The next item is the debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report: 'A new direction for HGV Drivers'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Motion NDM7961 Paul Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee on its inquiry: 'A new direction for HGV Drivers', which was laid in the Table Office on 25 January 2022.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion tabled in my name.
Dirprwy Lywydd, if Members cast their minds back to last autumn, they will remember the supply chain issues that were affecting our lives: certain shops running out of specific products, some petrol forecourts running dry, and emergency efforts by the Welsh and UK Governments to intervene and support our vital supply chains. The committee decided to hold an inquiry into these supply chain issues and have published a report, 'A New Direction for HGV Drivers: Addressing HGV drivers shortages and related supply chain issues'.
Now, during our inquiry we found the issues that lead to the supply chain breakdowns were numerous and complex. They included the pandemic, new trading arrangements following our exit from the EU, and even global events such as the ship, the Ever Given, blocking the Suez canal. However, a key reason for the disruption was a shortage of HGV drivers.
HGV drivers are the backbone of our logistics network and, as we saw last year, several issues came together to cause a shortage of drivers. The committee heard that, pre pandemic, there was a shortage of between 60,000 to 100,000 drivers in the UK. This historic shortfall was one of the key issues that had led to the acute driver shortage. However, Logistics UK made it clear that the combination of the end of EU membership and the end of the EU transition period, along with the COVID pandemic, transformed this shortage into an acute crisis. These issues were then compounded further when HGV driving tests were paused during the pandemic, causing a backlog and a 10-week wait for an examination.
And so the industry faced a perfect storm in 2020-21, when several issues coalesced at the same time. The committee decided to focus on those issues, as ensuring Wales has enough HGV drivers will be vital if we want to keep supply chains open and avoid similar breakdowns in the future. Our inquiry was short and focused. The committee took evidence from a number of organisations, including hauliers, business owners and trade unions. We also engaged directly with current and former HGV drivers, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who gave evidence to the inquiry.
The feedback we received from the engagement with drivers was very powerful and enlightening. I won't repeat exactly what some of the participants said, for fear of being ejected from this Chamber. However, it's clear that there are several issues with the current experience of being a HGV driver. A lot of the themes that shone through from the drivers were echoed, though in more parliamentary language, by other stakeholders.
Now, the report makes 11 recommendations around improving the training and working conditions of HGV drivers. The committee looks to the Welsh Government's forthcoming logistics and freight plan as an opportunity to implement these. And I will briefly go over some of the recommendations shortly. The committee believes that if these recommendations are met, then this will improve the experience of being a HGV driver and create a more attractive career option for those currently in, and those thinking of entering, the profession, thus attracting new, and retaining existing drivers in the industry.
The committee recommends improving driver training and continuous professional development in order to bring new entrants into the industry and to help the career progression of those already driving. The Welsh Government must work with industry to build on existing apprenticeship programmes and increase access to new drivers.
One of the key areas of concern raised by drivers was the overall experience of driving a HGV. They talked about poor-quality rest stops with bad but expensive food, dirty facilities and often a lack of security. One of the most worrying pieces of evidence we heard was that drivers view assault and robbery as an occupational hazard, which is totally unacceptable. One driver told us that, and I quote,
'You can’t sleep properly when you're worried about being robbed. Every little noise wakes you up. Nobody wants to drive tired.'
Another driver told us, and I quote again:
'I’ve been robbed over 10 times. It’s a horrible thing to admit but you expect it. The last time they slashed three holes in the curtain big enough to drive a vehicle through, half my load was on the layby ready to be stolen. Even the police see it as an occupational hazard. As drivers we just accept it.'
Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, HGV drivers shouldn't have to just accept it. The Welsh Government must quickly work with their partners to improve rest facilities for drivers and ensure that those facilities are as safe as possible. This should include surveying existing provision, filling gaps where they exist and working to develop a voluntary standards system so that drivers can easily find out the quality and security level of a rest stop.
As mentioned earlier, the Welsh Government’s transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', contains a commitment to create a new logistics and freight plan. Considering the pressing shortage of drivers, the committee feels that the new plan should be prioritised.
Now, I am pleased to say that the Welsh Government have accepted all the recommendations in our report. However, I am concerned that the most pressing recommendations, for example, the survey of rest stops and work to fill gaps in provision, will be implemented as part of the logistics and freight plan, which is only due to be completed by 2024. I urge the Government to prioritise these areas of the plan and, if possible, push these elements of work forwards before 2024. This is absolutely vital.
Last month, I received a letter from the organisation Displaced People in Action, who informed me that many of the Afghan people who arrived in Wales last year have experience driving large vehicles and would be interested in careers as HGV drivers. I have written to the relevant Ministers regarding this and I look forward to a response in due course. Whilst the situation with the arrivals of refugees from Ukraine is still developing, it may be pertinent for the Government to think about extending anything offered to arrivals from Afghanistan to people who arrive from Ukraine as well.
From keeping food on our shelves to delivering essential medical supplies, it is fair to say that HGV drivers were some of the unsung heroes of the pandemic. The implementation of this report's recommendations would improve driver experience and entry into the industry. Whilst the issues we experienced before Christmas have been largely resolved, supply chains are still creaking and we do live in turbulent times. It is not possible to predict if and when another shock will hit our global supply chains. This means that it is exceptionally important that we concentrate on shoring up parts of the system we have control over.

Vikki Howells AC: As a member of the economy committee, I'd like to start by echoing the thanks of our Chair, Paul Davies, to all those who took part in or supported our inquiry. It's a really important subject, at its core investigating something that touches the lives of all citizens in Wales on a daily basis, that is, how goods and products get on our shelves in our communities, and how we treat those people who play a crucial role in transporting those goods, how we make sure that they are valued and supported and can access appropriate facilities during those oh-so-precious moments of rest; important for their well-being, but also for their safety and the safety of others.
For my contribution to today's debate, I want to draw out three strands of our work that strike me as especially important. Firstly, recommendation 1 around training and apprenticeships: I recognise the Welsh Government's comments in their response that their ability to intervene in this specific policy area, in this specific issue, is limited due to responsibilities being reserved. However, as their response goes on to note, this recommendation chimes with Welsh Government policy around skills and of course the headline apprenticeship pledge for this Senedd term.
A number of interventions such as the personal learning account, ReAct, and logistics apprenticeships were mentioned in the Welsh Government's response, and I'd be keen to know from the Deputy Minister how Welsh Government is drawing attention to these courses for people who work in or are interested in working in the sector. Publicising these opportunities is so important if we are going to address that 50,000 shortfall in driver numbers.
Similarly, recommendations 7 and 8 are largely reserved matters, but where the central issues at their core align with Welsh Government priorities around the fair work agenda, and I'd really welcome further detail on how the Welsh Government is engaging with relevant trade unions to lobby UK Ministers, so that the aspirations shared between the committee and Welsh Ministers can be met.
I also want to briefly consider recommendations 3 to 5, all dealing with the provision of adequate rest stops. These recommendations are, I feel, key to this piece of work. As the committee heard, discomfort caused by inadequate rest facilities or even a complete absence is one of the biggest push factors encouraging HGV drivers to leave the industry.
I want to briefly illustrate my point by referring to one of my childhood heroes, and that is the feminist icon, Long Distance Clara. Those who recall Pigeon Street may remember Long Distance Clara was the stereotype-smashing, juggernaut-driving long-distance lorry driver who could drive pole to pole, east to west; nowhere was too far for Clara. However, her success was perhaps built on the hot dinner of which she could be sure at her journey's end. And the important role she played, the distances she could be expected to travel, were made bearable by moments of rest and relaxation that could be incorporated into her journey.
The point is a serious one, because the drivers who gave evidence to us raised a litany of concerns about the lack of safe places to park. When there were places to park, facilities could be substandard and not fit for purpose. We were told about broken showers, broken tiles and dirty wash facilities and the Road Haulage Association spoke of stops not even having toilets. And then, perhaps most seriously of all, these facilities were not safe, with—as our Chair has mentioned—witnesses saying that they'd been robbed up to 10 times. This is simply not good enough.
I'm pleased that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendations. However, I'd welcome any additional information that could be given around timescales to deliver these improvements, so that HGV drivers can access safe facilities that are fit for purpose, and we can remove that particular barrier that is having such an impact. Thank you.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'd like to begin by thanking my colleague and committee Chair, the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, for his excellent chairmanship throughout this inquiry. I would also like to thank the committee clerks and staff for their support.
I believe this, the committee's first report, is incredibly strong. I recall during our committee's brainstorming future-work-programme meetings that the HGV driver shortage was raised as supermarkets, filling stations and other supply chains were being squeezed due to the shortage of drivers. The idea of holding a short, sharp and snappy inquiry into this matter arose from the immediate pressures being felt and our desire to learn what the Welsh Government can do to help recruit and retain these valuable drivers.
The evidence gathered was hugely valuable, and I'm grateful to those who contributed, especially those HGV drivers who have offered their vital first-hand evidence and experience about the situation on the ground. We shouldn't underestimate the importance of key witness accounts, as their words carry so much value. It was these HGV drivers that kept the country moving throughout the pandemic. They helped keep shelves stocked, and they are the ones that have the best grasp over the situation that this report seeks to depict. The document identifies the key issues facing HGV drivers in Wales. It also provides practical and deliverable recommendations that I would encourage the Government to seriously consider.
Turning to the report itself, the Chair rightly highlights the impact of leaving the European Union and the COVID-19 pandemic that followed. However, the conditions in which these drivers operated existed long before either of these two events occurred. A pre-existing chronic shortage of HGV drivers amplified these acute and unprecedented events, which were critical factors in the subsequent supply chain issues that followed.
There are 11 recommendations that the Welsh Government can implement to safeguard the future of Wales's supply chain. I want to use my contribution today to focus solely on the experience of our HGV drivers, an important factor should we want to make this sector as lucrative and appealing as possible to the next generation of drivers.One of the HGV drivers who gave evidence about the experience of drivers said, and I quote:
'It's disgusting we are treated like animals no descent facilities hours are very unsociable no work life balance most drivers end up divorced'.
Is it really any surprise that we're facing critical recruitment shortages if this is the experience of a HGV driver? These conditions are not reflective of a modern and rewarding working environment.
We must also move away from the common misconception that service stations are only found along the M4 in south Wales. Freight moves north to south just as much as it travels east to west, and the A55 serves as a major freight route in north Wales. And it is a lottery when it comes to the quality of the services. For every service station that has clean and welcoming amenities, there is, sadly, another that does not. It's little wonder that this was raised by HGV drivers, and I'm surprised that the Welsh Government aren't aware of these discrepancies in service station and parking-site quality, because there isn't a Welsh Government survey of parking sites—something that the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport in the UK have expressed their concerns about in their evidence to the committee. I would encourage the Welsh Government to accept recommendation 3 and create a detailed inventory of locations and facilities similar to what is available across the border.
I encourage the Deputy Minister to reflect on the contents on this report and recognise the high quality of its content, contributions and conclusion, and I urge the Welsh Government to accept the recommendations made by the committee and commit to implementing them as a matter of urgency. Diolch.

Luke Fletcher AS: In the first instance, as a member of the committee, I wanted to thank those who gave evidence and, of course, the clerks, et cetera, for their work on this and putting this report together. And, of course, thank you to our committee Chair for his work on this and presenting the report to the Senedd today.
I wanted to touch on two particular aspects of the report. In the first instance, the evidence we had taken from drivers themselves was striking and very informative, especially when it came to highlighting some of the negative experiences on the road, most notably was the quality and lack of rest areas, which representatives of the haulage industry agreed was an issue, as well as driver safety in these areas. We heard about substandard wash facilities, with broken tiles and showers. We heard about the risk of being robbed when parked overnight, with one driver highlighting that he had been robbed over 10 times, as we've heard already, and that is accepted as an occupational hazard. That's unbelievable that that is the case in this sector. So, I was pleased to see that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendations from 3 to 6. Whilst this doesn't rectify the issue in the short term, it will go a long way to ensuring that we can create safer and cleaner places to rest for HGV drivers in the future, but I do hope the Welsh Government moves on this as soon as possible.
On driver work hours and conditions, I think there was a very clear disconnect between what haulage representatives were telling us was happening and what drivers were telling us was their reality, which, I have to say, as a former worker in the hospitality sector, doesn't surprise me at all. If you ever want to learn about the reality of work, you can't go far wrong with actually speaking to those who are working the day-to-day. Members will see on page 9 of the report the rules around driving hours, but drivers themselves were clear that employers often push them to front-load hours to remain within their average allowance. Often, that meant working 60-hour weeks, which is both physically and mentally draining. We have some work to do in tackling this, so again, I'm glad that the Government has accepted our recommendations on this front, and I would urge them to act on those recommendations as soon as possible.
Finally, a separate point to the report, but an important point for us to note, is that capacity element to training drivers. Both Rhun ap Iorwerth and I have spoken about this issue since the publication of our report as a committee, and he's highlighted a local issue in his area. Local to Rhun, they have waiting lists for tests of up to and exceeding 10 weeks. A trainer has recently left his post in the area, meaning it will become increasingly difficult for trainee drivers to book a test. Couple this with the DVSA's decision in February 2020 to close the test centre in Caernarfon and the challenge becomes even more clear. The intention is to close Caernarfon, by the way, and move testing to a site in Wrexham, meaning those from the north-west will need to travel across the north to now be tested, further adding to that issue with capacity.
To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, there are a number of challenges to address here, and I hope that the Governments on both sides of the M4 are serious in meeting them.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Following on from what Luke just said, actually, it's not possible to book a driving test in Wrexham at all, for anybody, even the learner drivers driving a car at the moment.
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate today. If we are to solve the issue of needing more truck drivers, we have to address the issue of retention, as has already been mentioned. It's not an easy job, and we should all be grateful for those who do it, especially for all they have done throughout the pandemic. It's obvious that if we are to take retention seriously, we must remedy the issue of the conditions they work in and the facilities they have available to them. That's about hearing the voices of those who work in the profession, as has happened in the committee.
It's no secret that the facilities available to drivers in the UK are not what they should be and compare poorly to facilities available in neighbouring countries. It has been raised with me that many lay-bys across key routes, including trunk roads, have been blocked off. These provided essential respite for drivers. HGV parking areas are just not up to scratch. Drivers and hauliers have been campaigning for better facilities for years. I would like to see the Welsh Government work with local government and businesses in Wales to remedy this situation. Drivers need a safe place to rest where they can access decent toilet and shower facilities, as has been mentioned. I therefore welcome the response from the Welsh Government on recommendation 3 to factor an audit of rest facilities into the new logistics and freight plan under the Wales transport strategy.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas AS: Yes.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm really grateful to you for taking the intervention. I could close my eyes now and be listening to a former regional Member from north Wales, the late Brynle Williams, who, some 14 years ago, was raising this very issue on a constant basis about rest stops for drivers and imploring the Welsh Government to actually do that audit and work with providers to uplift their services. Do you agree with me that it's really depressing to hear that those services haven't improved over the last 14 years and that it is a matter of urgency that they do improve in the coming years?

Carolyn Thomas AS: Yes, I did actually say that, that we've been campaigning for years. I remember Brynle from Cilcain, and I remember him taking part in that dispute as well, before he became an AM.
I was actually going to go on to say, as well, that these rest stops are so important. I was just going to suggest that, perhaps, for the ease of drivers who continuously drive across borders, this should be included in one UK-wide map. If mapping of facilities in England is currently taking place, as I believe is happening by an agency, could Welsh Government ask them to extend it to cover Wales at the same time to save time and money? If we want drivers to be retained in this industry, then we must act quickly and I trust that the Welsh Government will do so. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, for that. Can I thank the committee for their report and for tabling this debate, and for their continued engagement on this matter? As a Government, we absolutely remain concerned about the ongoing HGV driver and wider logistics sector labour shortages, which, as Paul Davies highlighted in his opening comments, have been exacerbated by issues and restrictions emanating from the end of the EU exit transition period, as well as the pressures deriving from the pandemic.

Dawn Bowden AC: The driver shortages are, of course, compounding wider domestic and global supply chain problems, leading to widespread cost inflation and longer delivery times for a broad range of goods. At present, we believe that no particular sector of the Welsh economy faces severe risks from supply problems, but the resilience of the Welsh supply chain will remain fragile as we emerge from the winter period. We are therefore more vulnerable than usual to disruptive events, such as severe weather, the Ukrainian crisis, and industrial action at ports. There's an elevated risk of unforeseen no-notice shortages of critical commodities, with potential for wider impacts to public services and businesses. The reasons behind the shortages have been well publicised, including the retirement of UK-based HGV drivers, significant numbers of EU-based drivers returning to Europe post Brexit, IR35 tax changes affecting drivers, and, of course, as we've heard, the backlog of tests waiting to be taken due to COVID.
The Department for Transport estimated that there are between 70,000 and 90,000 vacancies for HGV drivers, and whilst, as Sam Kurtz pointed out, these shortages have been developing for a number of years, as I've already said, they have been accelerated by the effects of Brexit and the pandemic. But the industry view is that these are not Welsh specific HGV driver issues; the problem, as we know, is a UK-wide one. And whilst the majority of powers relating to these issues are reserved, including driver hours and driver licensing, including training, testing and certification, we continue to press the UK Government to do more to support the industry.
Welsh Government is doing what it can to further mitigate these issues. We continue to work closely with the industry, and we have adapted existing employability and skills programmes to expand the availability of funding for training for lorry drivers. These include the personal learning accounts and the ReAct programme. Our apprenticeship programme has a number of logistics-focused options, one being the level 2 and level 3 in driving goods vehicles. And officials are working closely with Working Wales, Careers Wales's adult guidance service, to ensure that refugees who settle in Wales can access the ReAct programme, and its successor programme, ReAct+. The programme can provide up to £1,500 towards the cost of acquiring a UK driving licence and associated qualifications, such as the driver certificate of professional competence.
Furthermore, as has been pointed out, we have committed to a new logistics and freight plan for Wales, under our Wales transport strategy, and we'll work with the UK Government, the sector, and other partners, to develop this plan and ensure that we incorporate the recommendations from the committee's report into the plan. But I will speak to my colleague the Minister for Economy on whether we can bring forward the issue of the audit of driver facilities, because that does seem to be a particularly common and pressing theme that has been raised by the committee and through the evidence taken.
Industry bodies are of course grateful for the measures that have been developed by the UK Government, but they remain of the view that short-term changes to immigration policy, alongside regulatory changes to fast-track drivers into the industry, would help to ease pressures in the near term. In the longer term, there's an opportunity to reverse the problems that have been building in the industry over many years, and to create a more sustainable and resilient sector that offers fairer pay and working conditions for drivers. The UK Government stopgap measures should not undermine this longer term aspiration.
The recruitment and retention challenges that employers of HGV drivers are facing cannot be separated from the working conditions employers provide. This is not just about pay but about drivers being treated well and with respect by employers who value them. So, there's an important leadership role for the industry here, and we encourage the industry to work constructively with trade unions to improve the offer to drivers, because better working conditions would help attract and retain drivers and make for a healthier and more resilient labour market. This would benefit employers and workers within the industry.
We believe in social partnership, and that is demonstrated by the fact that we have a social partnership Minister, who's sat here today. We want to work with the freight and haulage industry, and we do work with trade unions and have honest conversations with them about how we move beyond short-term fixes to address workforce challenges and instead create longer term and sustainable change in the experience of work. I agree wholeheartedly with Vikki Howells that it is reasonable to expect the UK Government to look at how it can increase the number of female drivers in the sector. Women make up only 2 per cent of drivers at present, and that is clearly an area where targeted recruitment could help improve that statistic.
It's clear that the industry sees improved facilities for drivers as crucial to growing recruitment, and we've talked about that already. So, the Welsh Government was disappointed to learn that the £32.5 million of new funding to improve lorry parking facilities will only be made available for England. Although these matters are reserved, we have established cross-policy groups to review the latest issues, including training and roadside conditions. We're actively working on a number of areas to address and support the sector, and this includes working on a range of mitigations and interventions with various UK Government departments, the DVSA and logistics representative bodies.
We've been working with Careers Wales to promote a range of opportunities that are available across the logistics industry in Wales and how to access HGV driving as a career. We have regular contact with the Welsh branches of the Road Haulage Association and Logistics UK to gather industry intelligence on driver shortages and feed this back to UK Government. We have extended the relaxation of curfew times for deliveries to help provide more operational flexibility.
Dirprwy Lywydd, despite the legitimate concerns about HGV shortages, there are some signs that the situation is improving. The RHA estimates that the shortfall of drivers has reduced by around 15,000 over the last six months from a previous estimate of around 100,000 vacancies. However, many industry figures believe that, despite more candidates being attracted to the sector by higher pay and the measures implemented by Government across the UK, it will still take many months if not years to fully resolve the situation. So, we will continue to work with the committee and with the UK Government to ensure that the sector is given the support that it needs to continue delivering for the whole of the UK. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Paul Davies to reply to the debate.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Members for contributing to this debate this afternoon? We've heard some very insightful contributions from Members on some of the issues facing the sector and the impact that driver shortages are having more widely on the economy. I'm grateful to all Members, whether they are committee members or not, for engaging on this issue.
Before I respond to Members' individual contributions, I just want to reiterate how important HGV drivers are to our economy and say that they continue to play an enormous role in transporting goods across the country and, indeed, further afield. That's why it is crucial that the recruitment of HGV drivers is a priority for Governments across the UK and that there's some long-term investment in the UK domestic workforce.
I'm grateful for the Member for Cynon Valley's contribution, and she highlighted how important HGV drivers are in our everyday lives. It is these drivers who make sure that we are able to receive goods and products that make sure that we are able to live our everyday lives. She also made a very important point about the importance of training, and she's right to ask how the Welsh Government is drawing attention to courses available for HGV drivers. This is essential to drivers' continuous professional development.
I'm also grateful to my colleague the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. In his contribution, he focused on the experience of HGV drivers, and he's right to highlight the hit-and-miss rest stop facilities available to HGV drivers up and down the country. He's also right to say that it's now crucial that recommendation 3 is accepted as soon as possible, because we need to see that inventory of services so that an improvement can be seen in rest stop facilities up and down Wales.
I'm also grateful to the Member for South Wales West. He rightly raised the awful experiences we heard from HGV drivers and the fact that the backlog in tests made matters worse regarding the shortages we have been seeing. He also highlighted the importance of both Governments working together. It is important that the Welsh Government and the UK Government work together in order to try and resolve some of these issues.
I'm also grateful to the Member for North Wales for her contribution on how important these rest stop facilities are in helping to improve HGV drivers' experience.
I'm also grateful to the leader of the opposition for reminding us of our late colleague Brynle Williams, who, when he was in this place, had been campaigning tirelessly to improve the experience of HGV drivers.
Now, Members' contributions have rightly focused on HGV drivers' experiences, and I think it's fair to say that there is a lot that needs to be done to make the experience much more secure and comfortable for HGV drivers. When drivers refer to the legislation around drivers' hours as a 'beasting', then we know that something has gone seriously wrong. The drivers that gave evidence to the committee described how their employers pushed them to work 60 hours a week, and that is, of course, physically draining and can lead to high levels of stress and anxiety. So, I'm particularly pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendation to work with the UK Government on any review of legislation that affects the working conditions of HGV drivers. Of course, as this legislation is not devolved, the Welsh Government is limited in terms of what it can do. However, it's important that the sector and drivers in Wales are engaged and listened to so that any review can ensure their voices are heard.
I'm also pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to carry out an audit of rest facilities for drivers in Wales and create that national inventory, similar to that available for England. I'm grateful to the Deputy Minister, in her comments this afternoon, and I hope very much that she will be able to bring that inventory forward as soon as possible. The committee also received some really eye-opening accounts of the rest facilities that HGV drivers continue to experience. As the Member for Cynon Valley said, we heard about broken showers, broken tiles and dirty wash facilities, and even the cost of food and drink at service stations was cited as an issue, with one driver telling us he was charged £1.80 for a cup of hot water. I think all Members in the Chamber will agree with me when I say this: we must do better.
That leads me to the Deputy Minister's contribution, and I'd like to thank her for her constructive response to this afternoon's debate. I appreciate that her colleague the Minister for Economy can't simply click his fingers and resolve the issues facing the sector, and in many areas it's not within the Welsh Government's remit to take action. Nevertheless, where the Welsh Government has accepted all of the committee's recommendations and where it is able to, it has pledged to take action, and I'm very grateful to the Government in doing so. It's absolutely crucial now that those recommendations are implemented in full and that action is taken to support the sector and address some of its long-standing challenges. We want drivers to feel safe and valued in their roles.
Therefore, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank Members for their contributions today and say that the committee looks forward to being updated on the progress on the implementation of the recommendations in our report in due course? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I haven't heard any objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Food Security

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 7 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on food security. I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Motion NDM7963 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the vital contribution that farmers and rural communities make to the health and prosperity of the nation;
2. Notes the negative impact on global food security stemming from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the direct effect it has on people in Wales;
3. Believes that there needs to be an environmental and food production revolution in Wales;
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) convene a food summit including farmers, processors and retailers, so Wales can play its part in growing its food production base and boosting food security;
b) use the proposed Agriculture (Wales) Bill to enshrine food security as a public good;
c) make food security a key cornerstone of future support for Welsh farmers, including incentives;
d) support the proposed Food (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a pleasure for me to open this afternoon's debate because it's so important and so very timely. In the last two weeks alone, we've spoken on a number of occasions about our food security and its significance in the shadow of the invasion of Ukraine. Well, now is the time to put actions into words—or words into actions, rather. We'll have a real opportunity here to turn a corner and ensure that Wales becomes a self-sufficient nation that doesn't have to rely as heavily upon imported goods.
Indeed, we've all seen first-hand how precarious the global supply chain can become, especially when it comes to farming. If it's not energy supplies, which play a critical role in UK food infrastructure, it's the price of fertilizer, a key input in relation to a farmer's production yield. When we see a severe tightening of supply, it leads to the reduction in output of commodities, but these aren't the only factors. Ukraine is known as the bread basket of Europe for a reason. Together, Ukraine and Russia account for 30 per cent of the world's wheat and 50 per cent of the world's sunflower oil, seeds and meal exports. The situation in eastern Europe has already seen skyrocketing prices, and this is set to have a direct impact on both consumer food prices and the cost of livestock production, a situation that this Government is entirely unprepared for. That is why I'm extremely disappointed to see both the Labour Government and Plaid Cymru table amendments against this motion, and it will be no surprise to this Chamber that we'll be voting against those amendments today.
I've spoken once already about opportunity, and this is an opportunity to develop our food production in a sustainable way, enshrining its capabilities within the statute book. Indeed, we can build upon our domestic food production rate of 60 per cent, and ensure that security becomes a key cornerstone of future support for Welsh farmers. Yet, the focus of this Government is sadly distorted. On the one hand they make political decisions to amend this motion, to criticise the UK Government, attacking trade deals, yet on the other hand they refuse to recognise food production as a public good and refuse to offer our hard-working farmers the support they need. And when Welsh Government policy will see an increase in pressure on our farmers, and maybe even a reduction in our own food production and security, we become more reliant on imports—the very ones that this Government wish to criticise. Hypocrisy, thy name is this Labour Government. [Interruption.] It may well be 'rubbish' from the Member from the back, for Alyn and Deeside, but it is only by increasing our own food production that we can make Wales less reliant on imports and more resilient to shocks in the global system, something that this motion seeks to explicitly address.
But let us not forget our Welsh farmers are renowned in their own right. They're the ones who are producing the most environmentally friendly, sustainable and highest quality food on the market, and the general public recognise this. We should be shouting from the rooftops in support of Welsh agricultural product. Throughout the pandemic, we saw the country's reaction to the closure of our service sector. The Welsh people didn't turn their back on locally grown produce—they queued outside their local butchers to make sure they could buy cuts of prime Welsh beef and succulent legs and shoulders of Welsh lamb. The British public have learnt and understood the value of locally sourced meat and veg. Take Pembrokeshire's Blas y Tir potatoes, for example—they aren't tagged with thousands of air miles and lumbered with the travel emissions of imported produce from other parts of Europe or the rest of the world. But, equally, they also aren't as reliant upon the geopolitical situation in eastern Europe, south-east Asia or Australia either. They're locally grown, picked by local farmers, and purchased by people across Wales. And let's be absolutely clear, we're not wanting to industrialise our farming sector; what we want to do is secure the development of high-quality, sustainable food production so that Welsh people have access to Welsh food, and that is why this motion is with us this afternoon, and this is what this motion sets out to do.
The agricultural Bill is set to be presented later this spring, so now is our chance to change tack and take a different approach. There are two options before us: we can either continue the same course of dodging the changing geopolitical situation, or we can turn to our agricultural community and give them the support they need. We can recognise the vital contribution that our farmers and rural communities have made to the health and prosperity of our nation, and ensure that they have the security to continue doing so. Farming needs a friend and, for once, lets make this place that friend. Let's get our farmers, processors and retailers sat around a table at a food summit, let's use the agricultural Bill to ensure food security is a public good, let's back Peter Fox's excellent food Bill, and let's not waste this opportunity before us. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Joyce Watson AC: I've selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, Lesley Griffiths, to formally move amendment 1, tabled in her name.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete points 3 and 4 and replace with:
Regrets that the most immediate threat to food security for people living in Wales today is the cost-of-living crisis created by the Conservative UK Government.
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) develop a Wales Community Food Strategy to encourage the production and supply of locally-sourced food in Wales, supporting our communities to bring about positive change in our food system;
b) create a new system of farm support acknowledging ecologically sustainable local food production, reflecting the UN principles of Sustainable Land Management.

Amendment 1 moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Notes the importance of productive small family farms in sustaining the economy, language and culture in rural Wales.
Believes cuts to Wales’s agricultural funding from the UK Government, alongside new Free Trade Deals with countries like Australia and New Zealand, will have a further negative impact on Welsh food security and production.
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) convene a food summit including farmers, processors and retailers, so Wales can play its part in growing its food production base and boosting food security;
b) protect food security and production through providing stability payments as part of the next farming support scheme;
c) develop ways to reduce input costs for food producers and suppliers, to lower the cost of the food they produce for consumers.

Amendment 2 moved.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, acting Llywydd. I move the amendment, and thank you to Sam Kurtz from the Conservatives for putting forward this debate in such an eloquent way. This debate comes down to one core principle, namely the right to food. However, unfortunately, far too many people live with food uncertainty, without knowing where their next meal will come from. A quarter of the people of Wales live in poverty and have to prioritise food, or heating, or other essentials. We look forward to seeing the food Bill that we've heard about already from Sam progressing through the Senedd, to ensure positive developments and to reaffirm that commitment to the right to food.
But it stands to reason, therefore, that if there is a right to food, then that food must be produced here, and we can't depend on food imports from all corners of the globe forever. Recent crises, specifically the war in Ukraine and the climate change crisis, demonstrate more clearly than ever the need for us to develop our ability to grow and process our own food here in Wales. The need to strengthen the public procurement system is of course a key component of this, but at the heart of all of this is our farms and the people who work on them.
Now, in speaking about Welsh farms, let us not forget that the industry here is very different to the farming industry on the other side of Offa's Dyke. Indeed, it is unique to Wales. In the main, we have small family farms here, with rural jobs in nearby communities dependent on them, not to mention the cultural viability of those communities, too. The Welsh language's continued survival over the past century has, to a great extent, been dependent on these farms and rural communities.
However, these farms are also much more vulnerable to any damage caused by poor trade deals. Deals such as those struck between this state and Australia and Aotearoa mean that farmers in Wales are now at the whim of a market that doesn't care a jot about them and over which they have no control. If, for example, the market for lamb in China or the United States were to change, then very soon afterwards we would see lamb being shipped from Aotearoa to the European Union or this state, and, as there are no tariff levies on this lamb, it would undermine our industry in its entirety. Indeed, the Farmers Union of Wales forecasts that the deal with Australia will lead to a fall of £29 million in the Welsh red meat industry's GVA, and the two deals taken together could lead to a fall of £50 million, not to mention, of course, the hundreds of millions that the Conservative Government in Westminster has cut from farming budgets following Brexit. It's fair to say that the Conservatives have left our farmers in a very deep hole.
Our amendment today specifically refers to the need to convene a food summit to ensure food security. This is of course particularly important in the current climate, with the price of fertilizer and fuel seeing such a sharp increase. Farmers are having to make very difficult choices. Some are having to sell their store calves early to generate income to pay for these raw materials. Others are having to ration their use of fertilizer, endangering their crops. The price of fertilizer has increased 200 per cent in less than a year, and the price of feed has gone up over 60 per cent over the same period.
Of course, this will affect our ability to produce food and ensure food security here and, in turn, affect farm incomes and the economy of rural Wales. Whilst some of the recent price rises can be attributed to the war in Ukraine, let us not forget that these rises were in the works for months before the atrocities perpetrated by Putin. The cost-of-living crisis will have a detrimental impact on our farms and our ability to produce food, and it's estimated that the cost of food sold in supermarkets will increase by around 20 per cent by the autumn.
This is why a summit of this kind must be convened, to ensure that everything possible is done to ensure that our farms can continue to produce food and contribute to their communities. To this end, farms need stability payments to ensure their viability, and we must examine every possible way of reducing production costs.
I note that Sam Kurtz, during his contribution, expressed his disappointment that we'd tabled an amendment. I note that, and I thank him and the Conservatives for the motion, but, of course, our amendment does exactly that: it strengthens and improves a motion that we, in the main, support. So, do support the amendment, too. Thank you very much.

John Griffiths AC: I think this is undoubtedly a very important and timely debate given the food crisis that we're all aware of, and the fact that that's just going to increase in its severity over the months to come. We all know that it's also a medium and long-term challenge because of the impact of climate change, and we really need in Wales to play our part in getting these localised food chains developed so that local, quality food is consumed locally and we support our small farms and our local businesses. I'd just like to mention a couple of examples of that, and also the need to tackle food waste, because we know, I think, that the figure is that 9.5 million tonnes of food was wasted in the UK, 70 per cent of which is estimated to be edible and intended for consumption.
So, I think some local examples in dealing with some of these challenges, for me, are Castle Farm in Bishton in Newport, which is a local small farm that has ideas and energy, and is translating that into action, making a reality of Welsh Government policies and ambitions by delivering them on the ground. They produce local, quality food, they produce free range eggs, they have a small milking herd—too small to be viable if they were just selling the raw product, but, because they enhance that by having milkshake vending machines—one on their local farm shop, on farm, but they will increasingly have others out and about in the local community. And they, for example, have two local outlets, one in the Kingsway shopping centre in Newport, the Castle Farm Shop there, and also one in the recently refurbished Newport market, which reopened just last week, and they have a stall there as well. And as well as adding value to their milk production in terms of those milkshakes, they also produce ice cream on farm as well, and obviously sell that in their outlets. They do local markets, and they're always on the lookout for new possibilities, new sites, where they can sell their quality produce. And they also link with other local farms and sell the produce of those farms as well. So, I think it's a really good example of a local small farm having real ideas and energy and translating that into action.
And I'd like to highlight that refurbished Newport market as well, because it is top quality. It has a food court, it has local businesses there selling their produce, and much food and drink is among that. It has exhibition space, it's going to have high footfall coming through that market, which will be absolutely brilliant for those local purveyors of local food and drink. So, that's a real opportunity, and we need to get the message over to local businesses and farms that they can link with that Newport market to make a reality of those local supply chains.
I'd also like to emphasise the importance of food pantries, which are, for example, sited in Maindee library in Newport, and also in Caldicot, in the town centre, where they are dealing with the challenges of food waste by taking food from supermarkets, food that obviously is edible, and selling it—not selling it, but making it freely available to those in need locally. And those are really good examples, practical examples, of what can be done, and I think these food pantries will increasingly have a role to play right across Wales. So, they have the chilled food in the cabinet, but they also have a range of other food in shopping trolleys there too, made available to local communities. And of course they do much work around that, because when they have people coming to see them in need of those food supplies, they will often have other needs as well, and leads can be made to a variety of other services.
So, I do think that it's really important that all these examples—and we know there are many of them right across Wales, up and down the length and breadth of Wales—are brought to the attention of Senedd Members and Government Ministers and officials, because we can obviously learn from the good practice that's taking place all across Wales and spread that good practice, and make these ambitions and these policies that I think many of us share, to have these virtuous local food supply circles made a reality on the ground and also to tackle food waste. And I'm sure we'll hear many other good local examples here today in this important debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: With a rich and diverse food and produce sector, Wales has a unique role to play in demonstrating how it can be self-sufficient during national and international crises. We now face an unprecedented chapter in food security, and our ability to quickly protect Welsh industry, the people it employs and those it delivers to. I have to say, being as Brynle Williams, the late Brynle Williams, has been mentioned here today, that I concur with my colleagues Paul Davies and Andrew Davies, because this—. Food security was something else that Brynle Williams championed in the many years that he was here in this Chamber.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: This Welsh Labour Government has not only been slow to react to the mounting challenges that we face, but has been complacent on some of the problems caused, and, as a result, has fundamentally failed to put the people of Wales first. Food security is the state of having reliable access to a sufficient quantity of affordable, nutritious food. Now, while all of us sat here today have no difficulty in accessing these, the Food Standards Agency report that 9 per cent of people in Wales experience low food security, and a fifth of people now worry about running out of food. Shockingly, a quarter of 16 to 34-year-olds run out of access to food at some point every year.
Now, as we address the state of food security in Wales, it is vital that colleagues on the opposite bench recognise the alarming position of the Welsh Government and its refusal to regard food as a public good. A nation of huge resources, and regarded as the bread-basket of Europe, has led to the concept of food security being challenged, following the awful Russian invasion of Ukraine. With its decline in exports being felt around the world, now is the time for Wales to review and adapt while it does still have some chance.
Countries in north Africa and the middle east serve as a prime example of how quickly things can deteriorate. Egypt imports 85 per cent of its wheat from Russia, and Lebanon receives 66 per cent of its wheat from Ukraine—the regions now face a heightened level of food insecurity. And closer to home, even before the crisis in Ukraine, Wales has its own issues.
As highlighted by the RSPB in their food security during a nature and climate crisis report in 2018, the Food and Agriculture Organization reported that an estimated 2.2 million people in the UK were severely food insecure, making the UK the country with the highest reported food insecurity in Europe. The onset of the COVID-19 pandemic further exacerbated food insecurity, with loss of income and limited access to usual food sources.
With this, the Welsh Government must acknowledge that our farmers are now at the forefront of protecting and enhancing our food security, and they can also be at the heart of an environmental and food-producing revolution. In fact, a study from Bangor University found that Welsh sheep and beef farms using non-intensive methods have among the lowest greenhouse gas emissions of comparable systems globally.
In looking at food dependency, the Department for Food, Environment and Rural Affairs has reported that the United Kingdom is 64 per cent self-sufficient in all foods, and 77 per cent self-sufficient in indigenous-type food, compared to Finland and the Republic of Ireland, which are the top two nations for food security in the world. They score 85.3 and 83.8 on the index scale respectively, with the United Kingdom on 78.5.
It is vital that the Welsh Government conduct an immediate review of food security in Wales. I ask the Minister: while reforestation in Wales is vital, why are you putting livelihoods and food security further at risk by setting a tree-planting target that could require the complete afforestation of 3,750 Welsh family farms?
Food production in rural Wales is under serious threat like never before. Some of this is because of this Welsh Government's policies on agriculture and climate change. This must stop and a just transition commission established to ensure that the burden of decarbonisation does not fall unequally on our rural communities, and that it doesn't have a negative impact on the historically thriving Welsh language and food production in rural Wales.
We need to increase production, and we need to make our delicious produce even more competitive on the global stage. I've said many times here before that it is unacceptable that the shelf life for Welsh lamb is around 36.5 days, whilst New Zealand has achieved up to 110 days for carbon dioxide gas-flushed lamb.

Joyce Watson AC: Bring your comments to a close now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. I applaud the aim in the proposed food (Wales) Bill to eliminate food waste. The Welsh Government must not only recognise that this is a grave concern, but as a point of contention to its approach to conquering climate change and food security here in Wales. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. Sorry—just chasing the lectern. Thank you very much. I agree that this is an extremely important debate, and I thank the Conservative Party for having tabled it. I can't say I disagree with any of the motion or the amendments, and I have to say that there's a huge amount of agreement in what we need to be doing.
So, in 2020, Tyfu Cymru conducted a survey of the 200 horticulture businesses we then had in Wales, and it revealed that Wales was growing no more than a quarter of a piece of fruit or veg a day for our population—one quarter of the I think it's seven a day we now are recommended to eat by public health. And a strong case was made at that time, nearly two years ago, for a small capital grant scheme that would have enabled those small-scale producers to double their horticultural production. Unfortunately, the Minister decided not to take up that recommendation.
So, here we are in 2022, and we don't seem to have made any significant progress, while our food security has deteriorated significantly. It isn't just Brexit, which means that we no longer have the people who pick the produce; we also have the war in Ukraine disrupting international food markets. So, a very small pilot did go ahead in 2020, at the end of 2020—£20,000 enabled five fruit and veg businesses to pay for two polytunnels, two packing sheds, a borehole to enable a site to have water, and a windrow compost turner to create food for the soil. Amber Wheeler's evaluation shows that sales of veg on this very small scale increased by 75 per cent. And if you bulk that up to all 200 of these horticultural businesses—and there may be one or two more in the last two years—we really could start to improve our food security for one of the three main ingredients of what is a healthy diet.
So, it is not impressive, after 11 years of raising these issues in this Senedd, that we are still talking about developing a food strategy. We have no farm-to-fork strategy and, in the context of universal free school meals for all primary schools, we have to be candid that our procurement processes are still a work in progress. And it remains quite unclear how the Welsh Government is working in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to have a coherent, long-term inclusive strategy to bring together the foundational economy, our net zero carbon objectives, our need to address the nature crisis and our public health objectives to create a healthier population.
We talk about developing a stronger, fairer, greener food strategy, but we don't seem to have a plan. So, I agree with Sam Kurtz that food is a public good, and we need to reassure our farmers that there is a really important role for Welsh farming to improve our food security.
How is the economy Minister increasing the number of caterers with cooking skills? How are the 1 million trees we are going to be planting increasing the number of orchards we have, when we have the Woodland Trust saying that only elder, sloe and crab apples are going to be considered as Welsh trees, even though there is a massive body of evidence that people have been cultivating fruit trees for hundreds of years in Wales?
In light of what John Griffiths had to say, perhaps Newport could—. The refurbished market in Newport could be the hub of a Newport local food partnership, because that is what we need, and we need to do this locally.
We have a much bigger threat to our food security than even Brexit or Ukraine, and that is our climate. If we do not address the climate emergency and do what we say we want to do,we will simply not be able to produce the food we need, and the future will become very grim for future generations. So, just as the war in Ukraine requires us to accelerate our transition to green energy, the war in Ukraine requires us to cut our dependency on fertiliser and start adjusting our food production to protect and enhance our soil quality and address our nature emergency. What on earth are we doing having all these chicken sheds that require corn to be imported from across the world, including tearing down the Amazon?
So, in this month of all months, in March, how are we encouraging growers to plant so that we do indeed have the ability to feed the very poorest in our population, who really are having to choose between eating and heating? We have seen terrifying rises in food prices for people on low incomes, and I can tell you that in the wholesale market in Cardiff, the prices are so high this week that the retailers are scared to even buy it, because they don't think they're going to be able to sell it, and if they don't sell it, they're obviously going to make a massive loss.

Joyce Watson AC: Can you bring it to a close, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: We have all the ingredients for food security in Wales; we have water, land and sun, and we really, really do need to get on and ensure that we have that nature-secure, coherent food strategy to improve our food security and the well-being of our people.

James Evans MS: The progress that humankind has made to date is thanks to the agricultural revolution. Without farming being able to feed the population, we would not have had our industrial revolution, which forms the world we live in today. Being able to support an increasing population with reliable good-quality food is key to a stable and prosperous society, which we all would hope to live in. I would argue that food security is as important now as it has ever been. Good-quality and plentiful food supplies have allowed our society to evolve and gain greater skills. But this is wholly dependent on our farmers to produce the food that we need. Those who produce our food are the backbone of our very existence. Myself and other Senedd Members in my party, such as Sam Kurtz, Peter Fox and our illustrious leader Andrew R.T. Davies, have worked and still work in the farming industry, and know full well the complexities of the situations that we face.
The first thing that many of us do when we wake up is think of what we are going to have for breakfast, lunch or dinner—or if you're me, you tend to think about that as soon as the last meal's gone. But even in times of crisis and chaos, it is our basic human need to take on food and water to enable us to survive, and everybody should have access to that. Food is now seen as a commodity, trading across the world; the globalisation of food now means that we have become vulnerable to shocks in countries right across the world. We are living in uncertain times, where our usual reliance on previously stable markets will be tested. As has been said, the situation in Ukraine and Russia poses a significant concern for us all, threatening the world supplies of flour, grain and fertiliser and chemicals for the UK market, which we need.
Food shortages and increasing prices can threaten world order. The increasing bread price in Africa and the middle east could prove to destabilise many governments and democracies. We saw for ourselves here, in our country, during COVID that empty shelves in our supermarkets caused widespread panic, and I cannot stress enough the importance of keeping our nation fed. We must ensure that, here in Wales, we are resilient to political, physical and financial shocks from around the world. Only two days ago, The New York Times ran an article titled 'Ukraine War Threatens to Cause a Global Food Crisis'. The piece outlined the worrying fact that a crucial proportion of the world's wheat, corn and barley is trapped in Russia and Ukraine because of the war, while even larger proportions of the world's fertiliser are stuck in Russia and Belarus with no sign of them getting anywhere.
There have been concerns raised about the imports of food or feedstuffs, not just from a food security point of view, but from the environmental damage this is causing in those countries and the transportation footprints. For many years, I've championed farm-to-fork for local produce and the education of our young people and the nation to know more about where their food comes from. And we must be proud of our agricultural sector here in Wales: they produce top-quality produce in a sustainable manner and do an amazing job day in, day out. We should be supporting this sector and recognise how essential they are in order for food security, and I do hope that the Minister, in the White Paper, will make food security a key part of that.
I applaud my colleague Peter Fox's food Bill to address the food waste issue. I believe we should be moving away from convenience-based food, and instead be championing home-cooked, local produce that's seasonal, and all the associated health benefits this would bring. I believe that, since COVID, the Welsh population have a greater understanding of the supply chain issues of where their food comes from, and there has been a move back, as my colleague Sam Kurtz has said, to buying local and supporting our local businesses. But I believe we need to make it clearer on the packaging of food, to identify local products and where our food comes from. We need better labelling on foodstuffs so that we can make a choice to eat Welsh or British produce. At the moment, many foodstuffs are marketed as British when they're only packaged in this country, and I think that is a disgrace.
We face many challenges in the coming years and decades ahead, from wars to climate change, all of which strengthen our argument for greater food security within our borders. And I implore Members right across the Chamber to support the Welsh Conservative motion today.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Firstly, can I just make the point that rising food prices was already an issue prior to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, and was, in part, due to the pandemic and also because of Brexit? It concerns me that, in recent debates, the Conservatives have tried to ignore the facts about the cost-of-living crisis we now face, and decisions made by the Tory UK Government have caused this crisis and the food insecurity that comes with it, not just the war and the pandemic, which is the latest rhetoric I am hearing.
Years of austerity have caused job insecurity for the 22 per cent of people in Wales who are employed in public services. Cuts to the £20 universal credit uplift, increasing national insurance by 1.25 per cent in April and lifting the energy cap by 54 per cent are just some of the huge barriers that have been put on families—[Interruption.]—in Wales who will struggle to afford to eat or heat their homes as a direct result of these policies.
On top of this, the Farmers Union of Wales has repeated its concerns about the current Australia trade deal. The full liberalisation of the trading of agricultural goods does risk the displacement of Welsh and UK food production, and could impose further barriers on UK exports to the EU. But aside from this point, I do welcome Lesley Griffiths's amendment on developing a Welsh community food strategy to encourage the production and supply of locally sourced food in Wales. I also agree that food should be a public good, as was mentioned earlier, and seek better labelling of the product.
I recently inquired about schools and public services in north Wales, but was told that, in north Wales, much of the land is used for meat and dairy production, following the global average of 77 per cent of land being used for it, and there is only, really, Sealand in north Wales that is used for crops on a large scale, so we'd really have to look at that. But possibly the biggest long-term threat to our food security is the effects of climate change, which have already had huge impacts on crop yields in recent years, with unseasonably dry spells and also terrible flooding. So, we have to also take that into consideration.
Urgent action is required to protect our biodiversity and restore our natural resources. Over the years, in some areas, to increase productivity, ponds and ditches have been drained and hedgerows ripped up, and we have lost 97 per cent of our hay meadows across the UK. To combat this, we need to shift agricultural subsidies towards rewarding farmers appropriately for producing environmental and social outcomes, including improved soil health, clean air and water, and protecting biodiversity. But we also need to encourage more localised food production.
After the war, council houses were built with large gardens so that people could grow vegetables in them. There were community allotments and farms grew a variety of rotating crops, creating ecosystems and areas of biodiversity. I met with a group in Flintshire called FlintShare, where they do community farming at three locations and produce seasonal vegetables and fruit. Going forward, I'd like to see more of the projects rooted in the community supported in counties across Wales. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: And finally, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, acting Llywydd. And for the record, I would like to declare that I am a practicing farmer—in fact, I'm looking at cattle outside the window as I sit here. Can I thank my colleague Sam Kurtz for bringing forward this important and very timely debate? Quite frankly, food security is something that many of us have taken for granted. As a society, we've generally become accustomed to going into a supermarket, doing our weekly shop and then going back home without much thought as to where our food has come from and how it's been produced. But recent events have created a perfect storm and brought food security into sharp focus. The COVID-19 pandemic has caused havoc for supply chains across the world and this has had an impact on the availability of products here in Wales. We're also starting to see the impacts of the horrific and unnecessary Russian invasion of Ukraine, increasing the price and limiting the availability of imports of raw ingredients.
I do regret that the Labour amendment has sought to blatantly politicise the current issue, and the language used is unhelpful at a time in which people are looking for answers from all Governments. I also think that the Government amendment takes a more long-term view of the issue and fails to mention immediate steps that need to be taken to address issues facing many people at the moment. And so, it is in this regard that I support calls, as stated in the motion before us, for greater co-operation across Governments and the food and agricultural sectors through a food summit. This will help us to assess the levels of Wales's food security as well as looking for opportunities to mitigate some of the issues that we're currently facing.
As I've previously argued in this Chamber, there are still concerns amongst farmers that the future farming support scheme pivots too much towards paying for public goods, with a lack of recognition of the importance of supporting those producers in Wales who are trying to produce high-quality, affordable and sustainable food for our communities. We also need to relax some of the barriers facing farmers to enable them to use more of their land for food production. Arable farmers are expected to leave a proportion of their land fallow, but with inputs and overheads increasing at an alarming rate, many farmers are not going to be able to maintain current production levels. And so, releasing land will help to make up for that shortfall in some way and allow farmers to diversify a little more.
Finally, Llywydd, I would like to reiterate the need for a stronger legislative basis for the food system in Wales. During the development of my food Bill proposal, I have repeatedly heard that different parts of the food system don't always speak to each other, and that food governance and the wider strategy need to improve if we are to meet the needs of current and future generations. And I think that recent events have shown how we need structures in place that can bring together local, regional and national producers, as well as public bodies, to drive forward strategic planning and to encourage more localised sustainable and resilient supply chains. I look forward to discussing these issues with Members and stakeholders as my Bill progresses through the Senedd in the future.
To finish, Llywydd—acting Llywydd, sorry—we are living in a fraught period with a series of unprecedented events coalescing to create challenges that we haven't faced in decades. There is no one solution; instead, we need a package of measures to help alleviate the food security issues that we are currently experiencing. We clearly have to boost the resilience of local supply chains and take steps to reduce our resilience on imports from other countries, particularly those in politically unstable areas of the globe. And this is where we need the legislative framework in place to create a coherent direction of travel for the food sector in Wales, removing barriers facing Welsh producers to help them meet the needs of Wales. I hope that all Members will back the original motion today. I know that we all feel that this is a very important area, and I just wish that politics wouldn't get in the way of something so important and we could come together and agree something as important as this motion. Diolch, acting Llywydd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Like all Members contributing to this debate today, I want to begin by paying tribute to our farmers and our rural communities for the vital contribution that they make to the health and prosperity of our nation.
As we note the negative impact of the horrific war in Ukraine on food security, we should also note the positive impact of the actions of food produces and rural communities in Wales in supporting people displaced by the war. Their efforts should inspire us all to live up to the values they reflect—of solidarity, of fairness, and of global responsibility. I'm sure that the thoughts of all Members in the Siambr are with those people now living in besieged areas of Ukraine and in other conflict zones around the world, who experience the most severe threat of food insecurity, with children especially threatened with starvation or the lifelong impact of malnourishment.
Where I believe the position of this Senedd should depart from the Conservative motion is in its failure to acknowledge the true crises threatening food security in Wales today. Food supply to Wales remains robust, despite the immense challenges workers and businesses have faced: the disruption of the pandemic, the chaos and uncertainty of the UK Government's position on trade with our European neighbours. These have not led to widespread shortages of supply. We should also remember that globally as much as half of all food produce is discarded as waste, as John Griffiths referred to in his contribution. It would be nonsensical to put all issues of food insecurity into a single category. The conflict conditions driving food insecurity in Ukraine are having an effect on our own food security, but we each face a different set of challenges that will each require a different set of responses.
The most immediate threat to food security in Wales today is not a collapse in production or supply, but an economic crisis undermining people's ability to access food, and it is from the deliberate decisions taken by the UK Government—[Interruption.] Yes.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful for that. Could you name me another country that isn't experiencing the cost pressures that we're experiencing in the UK that we could use as an example?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's fair to say that, obviously, the pandemic has caused global disruption in the way you refer. However, your Chancellor had the opportunity to do something about it today and he didn't do it. Five billion pounds to take 5p off a litre of fuel—that's no good for people who haven't got money for food or money for energy or who haven't got a car.
Food poverty is inevitably a symptom of poverty in general, and the UK economy, under the current UK Chancellor, has experienced the largest real-term falls in incomes for more than four decades. In this context, the Conservative UK Government has decided to impose the largest tax increases, as a share of national income, in any year in the last three decades. Unemployment support will fall to its lowest real-terms value in more than three decades. Three quarters of households on universal credit will be worse off next month than they were a year ago. And the response of this Welsh Labour Government is targeted at this cost-of-living crisis created by the UK Conservative Party.
Last month, my colleague Rebecca Evans, the Minister for Finance and Local Government, announced a £330 million package of support, above anything offered by the UK Government. This includes direct cost-of-living payments, additional winter fuel payments, and discretionary assistance funding for local councils. Since 2019, we've invested £9 million specifically to promote those community institutions who support the growing, collection, distribution and sharing of food in Wales, from holiday enrichment programmes in schools to community-growing projects and community kitchens. My party's election manifesto last May pledged to develop a community food strategy, and our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru commits us to shaping this strategy together.
This month, I've met with farming unions, food retailers, supply chain businesses, industry trade bodies, and with my counterparts from the other Governments across the UK. This engagement is regular and provides an important means of informing and delivering measures to address our shared challenges. I recognise the Tories here don't understand how Government works, but we do not need a food summit. These discussions and meetings happen as a matter of course; it's business as usual. The community food strategy will not replace industrial or inter-governmental engagement; rather, it can respond to the desire of communities here in Wales to take a more active role in shaping the food system themselves. That is how we intend to approach its development, taking a bottom-up rather than a top-down approach.
The other major food security challenge facing us in Wales, and globally, perhaps not as immediately obvious as conflict or economic crises but certainly greater in its magnitude, are the climate and nature crises. It appears the Conservatives have not yet grasped that to deprioritise long-term actions on nature and climate is not the way to achieve food security here in Wales, as clearly was demonstrated by Janet Finch-Saunders's contribution. The Welsh Government's proposals for the long-term arrangements for agriculture are being discussed as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. In their development to date, we have sought to reflect the United Nations principles of sustainable land management. Those principles were of course developed in the context of addressing global food security and ending hunger worldwide. I hope the Senedd can agree now is not the time to abandon those UN principles nor our commitmentto supporting Welsh farming to become the most climate and nature friendly farming in the world. In responding to today's debate, I would welcome the support from the Conservatives in this Siambr in calling for a change to the ruinous policies inflicted on Wales's food producers by the UK Tory Government.The recently negotiated New Zealand trade deal
'shows a willingness by the UK Government to undermine UK farming and food security in return for negligible benefits to the economy'.
Not my words, but those of the president of the Farmers Union of Wales. Not a single Conservative Member of the Senedd has yet called out the shameful decision by the UK Chancellor to break their own manifesto promise and deny more than £200 million in funding for rural development here in Wales. I have noticed some Members of the Welsh Conservatives have started to distance themselves from their counterparts in London, and I hope, in responding to this debate—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I haven't.

Lesley Griffiths AC: —the Conservatives—[Laughter.] There is a retort. I do hope in responding to this debate, and I'm assuming it's the leader of the opposition, the Conservatives will take the opportunity to distance themselves from the policies of the UK Tory Government—policies of economic mismanagement, welfare cuts and austerity that threaten the food security of people in Wales today. Their policy is causing direct harm to our food and farming businesses.
In their motion, the Conservatives call for a revolution. Let them start today with an immediate and radical change in the policies of their own party at the other end of the M4. Diolch.

I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to sum up this debate today and follow on from the Minister. I did offer the Minister the opportunity to point to a country that isn't receiving the same price pressures that we are in the United Kingdom, and I'd also offer the regional Member for North Wales the opportunity, as well, to make an intervention on me to give that opportunity to look to a country that isn't having the same price pressures that we're having, instead of the amendment that you've tabled that is saying that the Conservative Government in Westminster is at fault on this. So, if you'd like to make an intervention—[Interruption.]—or if the Deputy Minister there would like to make an intervention—[Interruption.] Give me a country. Give me a country.

Jenny Rathbone AC: What about Costa Rica? I think they probably are not suffering the same pressures because they have a rich abundance of food—[Interruption.]

Andrew RT Davies AC: There's a natural abundance of food in Costa Rica, but the people in Costa Rica are also struggling under the cost pressures of importing food, and that's why we bring debates to the floor of the Senedd today, because we need greater food security. It is a fact that what's happened to this country over the last 30 years—and by 'this country' I'm talking of Wales and the United Kingdom—is that food security has dropped from about 75 per cent to 60 per cent. That is a fact, that's unarguable. Countries across Europe—[Interruption.] Well, if you'd like to make an intervention, Deputy Minister—

Lee Waters AC: You don't like it when somebody heckles you, do you?

Andrew RT Davies AC: No, I'm happy to take the intervention. [Interruption.] Stand up.

I would like to hear the leader of the opposition actually contribute and conclude the debate.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Stand up. If the Deputy Minister—

Joyce Watson rose—

Andrew RT Davies AC: Go on.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. We have seen today, of course, the spring budget, and what would have helped people, producers particularly, here, is around the cost of fuel and energy. If there had been a windfall tax towards helping that, rather than the 2p VAT gain—not the 5p reduction, but the 2p VAT gain—that this Government is making, it would have helped enormously those food producers taking their business forward, particularly the small ones that we represent here.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I stand by what the Chancellor delivered today for the people of Wales and the people of this country, as the Minister tried to highlight, which was a 5p cut in fuel duty, not for one month, not for two months, not for three months, but for 12 months. For 12 months. That's not just people with cars, as the Minister tried to indicate, that's for the people who haul our food, our freight, around this country, who will benefit from a cut in the price for the next 12 months. Also, the national insurance—[Interruption.] The national insurance threshold that has been lifted today in the same statement, which Martin Lewis the money expert has said is the most generous—[Interruption.] The most generous settlement that could be made—

Andrew. Andrew. Two seconds. Can I ask the members of the Government to make sure that we can all hear the speaker, please, and avoid heckling him so much?

Andrew RT Davies AC: As a man used to say inDad's Army, 'They don't like it up 'em'. [Laughter.] That's the long and the short of this Government, because what was delivered today in the spring statement was a solution to the cost-of-living crisis. What we heard from the Minister was nothing to deal with the food security issues that we're facing because of the Ukrainian crisis. That is a simple fact. Ukraine and Russia control 30 per cent of the wheat that is exported around the globe. What is happening in Ukraine will have devastating consequences for the whole world. I will draw on the comments of the head of the UN food programme, David Beasley, who said, 'If you think we are going through hell on earth now, you just wait'.That is what's going to happen to the food supply that is unfolding in Ukraine at the moment.

Andrew RT Davies AC: As the opener, Sam Kurtz, touched on when he was opening this debate—. He talked of the cost pressures within the industry, he talked of the interdependency of the industry, from primary producers, farmers, to the processors and the retailers. That's why such an important part of the motion that's before the Senedd today is about pulling together that whole chain to discuss what is needed from Government. You have a unique opportunity, Minister, with the agricultural Bill that is coming before the Senedd in April to actually do that. That's why the Agriculture Act 1947 was so important—that the Labour Government brought forward in 1947—to address the crisis that faced Europe from the devastation of the second world war and the food security that needed to be put in place. That's why we put the motion down today to try and be constructive in trying to tease out from the Government a vision for where it wants to be. But, as we heard from the Member for Cardiff Central who said that there was a lack of coherence in the Government planning—. I can see the Minister whispering to her colleague the Minister for education. You might like to take note of what the Member for Cardiff Central said about the lack of coherence around the plans that you have put in place as the Minister for rural affairs for the last five years. That's not me speaking; that's coming from your own benches.
I want to see the Senedd working collaboratively together so that we can deal with the food security issues that Peter Fox has tried to touch on with his Bill, the food Bill that he has put forward that is moving through this Senedd at the moment and touches on the points that John Griffiths also mentioned about food waste, because that is another critical component that we need to deal with—rather than just producing the food, seeing so much food going to waste from major multiples as well as restaurants. But it is the issue that the amendment tabled by Plaid Cymru, which talked about the trade deals that have been discussed post Brexit—. I make no apologies for those trade deals at all. It is an opportunity for us to unlock the potential and open up markets, the Pacific rim market of 1.2 billion consumers—1.2 billion consumers. I will stand on any platform and make the case that we need to be engaged to support the farmers in Wales and the rest of the UK to unlock that potential. That's where the growth will be coming from. But, in the immediate, what we need to be dealing with is making sure that we have the capacity here in Wales to grow the food, to process that food, and sell that food.
The point that was made about milk production is well made time and time again: sadly, we don't have a major milk processing facility here in Wales; we have to send that processing capacity over the other side of Offa's Dyke and then return it. So, Members across the Chamber can talk about local production, but unless we've got the processing facilities to do it, we're not adding value here in Wales, and that's really important—something that the Government again could be focusing its energies on, that the Irish Government have been so successful with. I have time and time again raised this point with the Minister and the Labour frontbench about the 'Harvest 2020' document that the Irish Government brought forward, that Janet Finch-Saunders touched on. She was talking about the other countries—Finland, for example, with exceptional food security rates, and the Republic of Ireland coming second in the league table because they've got the processors, they've got the producers, and they've got the retailers around the table and have mapped out a way forward to achieve that. We haven't succeeded in doing that here in Wales, and we need to up our game.
John Griffiths's contribution was so well timed, highlighting success stories of local produce actually making it from the farm in a local area in Newport to the actual retail space from vending machines and the Newport market redevelopment. That is an important development that more producers need to be able to access and enjoy that benefit that we can see. But, it is vital, Minister, that you use the opportunity that you do have to use the agricultural Bill to put those incentives in place. Several Members, including the regional Member for North Wales on your own benches, said that producing food is a public good. It is a public—[Interruption.] Well, your own Member on the backbenches pointed that out. And with the greatest of respect, what's going on in Ukraine today will be measured for decades to come, and the danger is that we don't use this opportunity to make sure that we make food security an important part of what we want to support going forward. And you can count on it as being a public good. It was European regulations that would prevent that being part of the public good. You have the legislative ability to carve out your niche here, Minister, and put your stamp on this. And I would hope today that we could call on the Chamber to support the motion that's before us, because it is vitally important that we gain the attention of the public of what is coming down the road at us. And if we can do that by driving forward a food Bill that Peter Fox has put before us, and also the agricultural Bill that your Government are bringing forward in the spring, we can make a real difference to people's lives, the length and breadth of Wales.
And I will end again on that comment from David Beasley, who's head of the food programme, who said if you think that we're going on hell on earth at the moment, you just get ready for it, because that is what's going to happen the longer the Ukraine war continues, and it's wrong if we don't put the precautions in place to make sure that people can have food on the table at an affordable price. We can do it, we must do it, and we can't lose this opportunity to get on with it. So, I hope the Senedd will support the motion before them today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I did hear an objection, therefore I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

And we have now reached that voting time. In accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting temporarily before proceeding to voting time.

Plenary was suspended at 18:01.
The Senedd reconvened at 18:06, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

8. Voting Time

We have now arrived at the voting time, and we'll now take a vote on the Conservative motion on food security. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Thirteen in favour, no abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7: Welsh Conservatives Debate - Food security. Motion without amendment: For: 13, Against: 35, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We'll now vote on the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed and amendment 2 is deselected.

Item 7: Welsh Conservatives Debate - Amendment 1 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 25, Against: 23, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

We will therefore now vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7963 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the vital contribution that farmers and rural communities make to the health and prosperity of the nation;
2. Notes the negative impact on global food security stemming from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the direct effect it has on people in Wales;
3. Regrets that the most immediate threat to food security for people living in Wales today is the cost-of-living crisis created by the Conservative UK Government.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) develop a Wales Community Food Strategy to encourage the production and supply of locally-sourced food in Wales, supporting our communities to bring about positive change in our food system;
b) create a new system of farm support acknowledging ecologically sustainable local food production, reflecting the UN principles of Sustainable Land Management.

Open the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 7: Welsh Conservatives Debate - Food security. Motion as amended: For: 35, Against: 13, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings us to the end of voting for today.

9. Short Debate: Supporting communities at continuous risk of flooding: Is it time to establish a flood forum for Wales?

I now move to today's short debate, and I call on Heledd Fychan to speak on the topic she has chosen.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. I look forward today, hopefully, to convincing the Senedd of the merits of establishing a flood forum for Wales. John Griffiths, Delyth Jewell and Llyr Gruffydd have requested a minute of time as part of this debate, and I will ensure that there is time for them to make their contributions at the end of my contribution.
As anyone who has suffered flooding will know, or who has visited a property or community that has suffered flooding, it's an earth-shattering experience. If you haven't seen the impacts with your own eyes, it's impossible to comprehend the scale of the disruption and how filthy water penetrates everything. Even with insurance, it can take months and sometimes years to restore properties, and, of course, some important items such as photographs and personal papers are lost forever. I'll never forget, following the dreadful flooding of 2020, visiting a home where there were two elderly people in tears because all of the photographs of their daughter, who died in her 30s, had been destroyed by flooding. They were abroad when the flooding hit and had no time to move anything to a safe place. Words of comfort are simply inadequate in such circumstances.
The psychological impact is also something that can last for years after flooding. I still regularly meet with those in my region who have experienced flooding in their homes and businesses, and it's clear, even years later, that they are still suffering ongoing trauma. Every time it rains heavily, they can't sleep. They're watching the rain, the river and the drains and culverts, fearing that the worst will happen yet again. Many also say that their children experience regular nightmares. On top of all of this, many have difficulty finding insurance, which leads to anxiety about the financial impact if the worst were to happen again. We must also remember those who can't afford insurance—something that's bound to get worse as a result of the cost-of-living crisis.

Heledd Fychan AS: I've collected countless testimonies from those that have been affected by flooding, and since there is time today, I'd like to read three quotes in full, including the first, which is from a resident in RCT six months after the 2020 floods, which illustrates the emotional and psychological impact:
'I honestly feel like this experience has pushed me to the brink. It's been one of the worst things I've ever experienced and still affects me every day in some way. Even filling in this survey and thinking back to it all I've cried. I had 6 weeks off work with stress, I can't sleep or relax when it's raining badly. I don't know if I'll ever be the same again, I've spoken to many neighbours who all agree it's like we have PTSD. The mental and emotional stress of the whole situation has absolutely shocked me, I've always regarded myself as a very strong person but this almost broke me. Waking up at 5am to the sound of running water and going downstairs to dirty water pouring in your house and looking out the window to see a literal river raging past your house and taking cars with it, with absolutely no warning at all, it makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it even now. How are we ever supposed to relax in our homes again when there's bad weather? We can't trust NRW or RCT for that matter. My sense of safety in my home has been robbed from me and my family. We've been moved into an unfurnished flat in a strange area and then we went into lockdown as well, we literally have a bed and a tv because we lost everything else and then with lockdown getting furniture was practically impossible. Then on top of all that stress we have the stress of trying to rebuild our houses and lives, deal with insurance companies who are basically soulless monsters in some cases, source 2 new cars. If I ever had to go through this again...well, I don't think I could. I'd be in a psychiatric hospital. They need to protect us before they take more of us and more from us than they already have, we can't survive another instance like this.'
The two other quotes are shorter, but still encapsulate that sense of trauma. A resident wrote:
'We lost our pet. Our dog was downstairs. Our children are traumatised knowing she suffered and drowned.'
And finally:
'Our eldest daughter (20) has been diagnosed with PTSD as a result of the flood. She is on medication, receiving counselling and although she tried, she has been unable to return to work and as a result has had to leave her post with BT. Her wellbeing is very much our focus...Someone is responsible, we are desperately worried that this may happen again...Anxiety levels are high every time it rains.'
Testimonies such as these convinced me of the need for an independent inquiry into the floods, and I'm pleased that, as part of the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, there will be an independent review as well as further investment in flood protection measures. But comments and discussions on those are for another day. Rather, I would like to focus today on how we are providing support to communities that are at risk of future flooding both before, during and after the floods and make the case for the establishment of a Welsh flood forum to fulfil this role.

Heledd Fychan AS: But why do we need such a forum? In England and Scotland, there are established fora that support and provide practical assistance to those in need. While there is some support available in Wales—some through some county councils or through NRW, or through the National Flood Forum if it is funded to work in any particular area—it's fair to say that the support is pretty ad hoc and inconsistent at the moment. And that's not a criticism of local authorities or NRW. They are overwhelmed by the statutory duties that they have in relation to flooding. And even if they had the capacity to do more to support communities, I question whether they should provide this support, because communities often believe that they are culpable when flooding happens. Indeed, even when councils or NRW have tried to fill a role similar to that undertaken by the National Flood Forum in Wales, communities are often wary of them because they are not seen as being impartial. So, let's look at what the Scottish national flood forum and the National Flood Forum in England do, and why I believe we should consider emulating this in Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: The Scottish Flood Forum is a charity that was founded in 2009, and it is mainly funded by the Scottish Government, receiving £200,000 per annum, with additional donations and other small grants. It was initially set up by the Scottish Government before going on to become a charity—a model that we could emulate in Wales. It works alongside communities at risk of flooding to ensure that their voices are heard and understood as part of flood mitigation planning and flood recover responses—a vital step to ensuring that flooding is not as traumatic and serious for as many as it is now. Local communities are given support and advice where needed to help manage the flood risk, and the forum also advocates on their behalf. They provide independent advice and services, and are able to provide more devolved and local support to those who need it. They also provide local communities with flooding guides and advise on insurance and flood recovery. This is something that is currently missing in Wales. We have no official guidance for those who are at risk and wish to defend their properties. They also have a live warning system in place via Twitter, and, while this is similar to NRW's warning system, it seems to be more effective. They even work with communities to install hyperlocal flooding alert systems, empowering communities to be directly involved in such schemes.
The Scottish Flood Forum was born out of the National Flood Forum, which was established as a charity in 2002. Though initially funded by the UK Government, it is now funded by fundraising and donations from the public. Though operating in both England and Wales, in reality, their involvement in Wales is very limited at present and relies on pockets of funding for them to undertake some specific work. As a result, they predominantly work in England, and their resources are only available in English. If you look at their social media, you will see how they visit flooded communities with their recovery trailer to offer support and advice directly to residents and businesses at once following a flood. Their main focus is assisting individuals who have been affected, and they also help to guide legislation relating to flooding. They provide clear information and services to victims of flooding and have launched a website, along with a Twitter account, as well as a 24-hour, seven-days-a-week floodline for contacting in case of emergency, as well as providing independent advice regarding flood defence and insurance. They work hand in hand with Flood Re to provide advice to those who are living in an at-risk area, in terms of insurance.
When they have been funded to work in Wales, the feedback has been extremely positive. And while we could simply fund the National Flood forum to expand its work here in Wales, I think that if you look at what the benefits have been in Scotland of having a Scottish flood forum, they seem to support that we need one in Wales. In fact, if you look at the model, the Scottish Flood Forum and the National Flood Forum work closely with one another, and each have a representative on each other’s boards. I have spoken to people associated with both and they agree that Wales would greatly benefit from having a specific flood forum that could also work in conjunction with them. Now, I know that money is limited, but experiences of at-risk communities in both Scotland and Wales show the value of equipping communities to cope with the impacts and threats of flooding, and it's something that we can and should be improving here in Wales.
People in our at-risk communities are currently unsure who they can contact for advice and support in relation to reducing the flooding risk to their home or business. And, as I mentioned, many are open about their lack of trust in local authorities and NRW to fulfil such a role, especially when those organisations are overwhelmed by the demand for support when flooding hits, especially with recovery afterwards. A national flood forum here in Wales would mean that we would have a better understanding of why flooding starts and what can be done to support and help local communities. The voice and experience of those living in at-risk communities are an important factor in understanding why flooding is so severe in some areas, yet this is something that local government often overlooks. There is also the element of local support to consider. Many individuals who are flooded within a community both give and receive emotional support. As I've mentioned, flooding is an extremely traumatic event, and many will struggle with the aftermath. By having the support there to help, they are able to recover.

Heledd Fychan AS: I very much hope that I've therefore convinced the Deputy Minister today of the value of looking into this issue in more detail and of the benefits to our communities of establishing a flood forum for Wales.

Can I remind the Members they have a minute each? John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Heledd Fychan for bringing this debate to the Senedd today, and I very much agree that we do need to find ways to empower our local communities more in terms of flood prevention, because they know their local communities best. In December 2020, the Gwent levels experienced flooding in Magor and other parts, and there was great concern that the reens that drain that area were not properly managed and sustained, and agencies such as NRW were seen to be wanting. It seems to me that the only way we will get progress and better buy-in from our local communities, which we badly need in terms of the risk of flooding, is by empowering them and putting them in the driving seat, and empowering community councils, such as Magor with Undy Community Council, because these people do know the area best—they've lived there for many years very often—and whatever mechanism is found, they do need to be in the driving seat to a greater extent than is the position at the moment.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Heledd, for putting forward such an important debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: I wanted to add to the points about the physiological scarring brought about by flooding. In February 2020, I visited streets in Ystrad Mynach that had been hit by flooding. Whole homes were swamped with water and cars written off. But the thing that stayed with me is the impact on residents' children. A number of them told me that their children were traumatised with worry, that they'd lost their toys, and they were asking if their pets could sleep upstairs because they were worried that the same thing would happen again and that their pets would drown, and they were frightened every time it rained. I called at the time for counselling support to be made available for children who were affected by flooding. I hope that any forum in the future will address this. We need to make sure that local voices are heard and that initiatives to restore and protect buildings are matched by a determination to support residents' mental health.

Delyth Jewell AC: And thank you very much to Heledd once again for this debate. I found some of the points and some the things that she quoted heartbreaking but so, so important for us to be learning about.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The NRW review of the floods in February 2020 noted that around 60 or 70 staff were required above the baseline staff numbers that they had at that time to ensure sustainable and long-term improvements to the flood management service. Now, the Government, to be fair, provided that funding on a temporary basis. I raised with the First Minister a few months ago that it would be unwise not to continue with that funding because the posts had been funded, and he agreed that it would be sensible to continue with that funding. Now, I'm aware that the review is currently taking place between the Government and NRW on their funding at present, but I just want to draw attention to a report that has been published by the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee today, as it happens, following our annual scrutiny of NRW, which does point to the committee's view that funding NRW should be proportionate to its roles and its responsibilities, and, of course, thanks to Heledd, flooding is one clear example of that, and we very much hope that the Government will meet that need following the funding review that they are currently holding.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate—Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Well, thank you for the opportunity to reply to the debate.

Lee Waters AC: I'd just like to set out how the Government is supporting communities at risk of flooding and whether we feel it's time to establish a flood forum for Wales.
We have in place, through the flood strategy that was published in 2020, a comprehensive strategy that sets out our long-term measures for reducing flood risk across Wales. The strategy itself drew on learning from the February 2020 storms that tragically impacted many of our communities. And now, through the programme for government and co-operation agreement, we have set out clear objectives and a substantial supporting package of investment to reduce flood risk and coastal erosion.
The Member will be aware that the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru are working together closely to develop the scope and terms of reference for the independent review of local authorities' section 19 reports and NRW's review of its response to the February 2020 floods. We intend to make an announcement on the review with a designated Member in due course, and it's likely that this review will consider the issue of a Wales flood forum. So, I think it would be preferable not to fetter this process and to allow the review to develop recommendations for us to consider and action. Aside from the independent section 19 reports review, which the designated Member and the Minister for Climate Change are leading, Wales's independent flood and coastal erosion committee, chaired by Martin Buckle, is undertaking reviews as part of its work programme, including clarifying roles and responsibilities relating to flood risk management activity.
The Welsh Government published research in 2013 entitled, 'Flood Advocacy & Support Service for Communities in Wales'—not the snappiest of titles, but it does what it says on the tin. This was designed to provide practical recommendations for developing flood support provision in Wales and led to our funding NRW to manage this work of raising awareness and building resilience within communities. And I don't feel that the work being undertaken by the National Flood Forum and the Scottish Flood Forum differs significantly to that which we're already delivering here in Wales through implementation of our flood strategy. Implementation of our policy is under constant review and we and our delivery partners look to address gaps where these exist and to learn from good practice. And we're continuing to learn from the events and our improving systems. Over the past 18 months, we've been pleased to see how well our risk management authorities have worked together, not only in undertaking their investigations but delivering improvements to those communities affected, and I expect to see this kind of collaborative working continue as we step up our engagement and delivery in reducing flood risk across Wales.
Investment in this area has never been so important, hence why we announced the 2022-23 flood programme funding package last week, and this is our largest ever flood programme, totalling over £71 million next year, with a three-year allocation of over £214 million, which will help deliver a stronger pipeline of future flood schemes and enable better forward planning. These packages will also help us meet the commitment to address the issue of flooding as set out in the co-operation agreement between ourselves and Plaid Cymru.
And I'm grateful, Dirprwy Lywydd, for the huge contribution from staff in local authorities, Natural Resources Wales, water companies, emergency services and community flood wardens, who play their role in protecting our communities in responding and in delivering measures to reduce flood risk. As the climate changes, we must all learn to adapt. We're looking forward, encouraging new ways of working whilst ensuring that our critical infrastructure keeps our communities safe. Diolch.

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close, and I will see you all again next week.

The meeting ended at 18:29.

QNR

Questions to the Economy Minister

Hefin David: Will the Minister make a statement on the future of degree apprenticeships?

Vaughan Gething: We are working with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to expand degree apprenticeships, moving from the pilot phase to mainstreaming, in line with our programme for government commitment.

Delyth Jewell: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support small and medium-sized enterprises in South Wales East?

Vaughan Gething: The Welsh Government remains fully committed to supporting micro, small and medium enterprises in all parts of Wales. They can access a wide range of information, advice and support through our Business Wales service and the Development Bank of Wales.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Hefin David: What support is the Welsh Government providing for access to dentists post pandemic?

Eluned Morgan: We are providing health boards with up to £3 million in 2021-22 to boost access to NHS dental services and £2 million recurrently from 2022-23 to support increased provision. Health boards will be able to invest this funding in NHS dental services to address local needs and issues.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Social Services

Carolyn Thomas: Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government plans to improve care services in North Wales?

Julie Morgan: We are working to improve recruitment and retention in social care through a national recruitment campaign. Our real living wage commitment and the new rebalancing care and support programme will be working at both a national and regional level to strengthen arrangements for commissioning social care services across Wales.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing

Rhys ab Owen: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the number of excess deaths at the beginning of the pandemic amongst people living with dementia?

Lynne Neagle: The technical advisory group has published two reports on excess deaths since the start of the pandemic, which include information on deaths from dementia. We also published a companion document to the dementia action plan in September 2021, which confirmed our priorities for action.